Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City • Hacker News Board

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#561

Post by margalabargala » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 3:54 PM UTC

MisterMower wrote: post #556

margalabargala wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a new and moved goalpost far from the original discussion, but sure. Is there a specific state's laws that you think describe a circumstances when a bike may proceed through a red light, but it is unsafe to do so? If so, how does that unsafety compare to your opinion on cars turning right on red?

Let me be more direct: because it’s legal for cyclists to run red lights, you think they should? I hope you can see what I am getting at now. You can’t have it both ways. If cyclists are going to use roads designed for and paid by motorists, they should be subject to the same rules, regulations, taxes, and enforcement. You’re welcome to defend a double standard for cyclists, but it won’t change the fact that it is in…

Your implication, without coming out and saying it, is that you think that a cyclist going through a rad light is a bad idea. You've not supported this with anything.

I think there exist situations where it's reasonable for cyclists to go through red lights. I think there exist situations where it's reasonable for cars to go through red lights.

Roads are designed for both bikes and cars alike, or do they not have bike lanes where you're from? Since bicycles and cars are fundamentally different vehicles, they should have different sets of laws applied to them. To try to apply the same set of rules would be inherently unfair. You're welcome to try to argue that that's actually fair, but you've currently backed up your stance with nothing but fake leading questions and baseless claims.

"The law prohibits the rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges"

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#562

Post by AngryData » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 4:30 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #435

AngryData wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems completely fucked to me. Charging people who aren't guilty of any crime with a crime because somebody else was driving their car?

What do you mean by people who aren't guilty? The infraction here is allowing your vehicle to run a red light.

How do you allow a vehicle to run a red light that you aren't driving?

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#563

Post by AngryData » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 4:31 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #432

AngryData wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same "alternative" that there is to every other crime in existence, proving the person you charged with a crime actually committed the crime. The default is suppose to be innocence, not guilty. It is the state's responsibility or problem to prove someone is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, not a citizen's responsibility to prove their continued innocence at all times.

I mean, the state obviously has photo evidence. So you need to show that either the photo was taken in error, that it misidentified your vehicle or that you weren't the legal owner at the time.

They have a photo of a car, but the car cannot commit a crime all on its own, someone has to be driving it. And if you have no idea who is driving when you charge them you are inevitably going to be charging innocent people.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#564

Post by guywithahat » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 5:12 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #320

guywithahat wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean if we required a license to own a bike in NYC we could see a significant reduction in injuries/deaths, same for pedestrians. Cars are already heavily regulated and likely aren't the underlying issue. There are many ways to interpret data, but one often comes to the conclusion that pedestrians and bikers are the root cause of most accidents.

Cars are only “heavily regulated” in the sense that you pass a test once when you are a teenager and then never have to pass a test again, just pay a nominal fee to renew your license. I am curious what data you are looking at that gives you the impression pedestrians and bikers are the root cause of most accidents. As a frequent pedestrian / biker here, I see a car doing something unhinged about every mile I walk. O…

Well if this is the standard we’re going for

> the fact that any pedestrians/bikers are killed/injured by cars in NYC is unacceptable.

Then the next step is regulating bikes and pedestrians. I think most studies which are willing to assign blame to bikes find they’re usually at fault or visibility is an issue, both of which come down to the bike. To approach no deaths, we need licenses, lights, increased safety protection, and training. If we’re fine with NYC just being one of the safest cities for bikers and pedestrians, then maybe we don’t have to worry about that

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#565

Post by scyzoryk_xyz » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

dzhiurgis wrote: post #496

scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there were other ways of tracking and observing vehicle behavior. And some reliable way of identifying vehicles themselves. Or ways that we could automate this with computers to sort through. But that's just science fiction. Cars are just going to be cars!

Kinda more dystopian the ads have better tracking of us than law enforcement.

Yes. This. Or that the advertising is the driving force behind surveillance tech

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#566

Post by toasted-subs » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 6:06 PM UTC

afcool83 wrote: post #239

I live in one of the areas they are actively testing/training in. Their cars consistently behave better and more safely than most human drivers that I’m forced to share the road with. As semi-autonomous and autonomous cars become the norm, I would adore to see obtaining a drivers license ratchet up in difficulty in order to remove dangerous human drivers from the road.

Hang up man.

Not sure if there’s any real human drivers on the road anymore.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#567

Post by kjkjadksj » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 6:29 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #474

kjkjadksj wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is for the lawyers not indicative of capability

I’ve taken a nap in my Waymos. One can’t in a Tesla. That is a difference in capability.

There are news articles of people doing that on the 5 freeway

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#568

Post by jakelazaroff » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 6:31 PM UTC

AngryData wrote: post #562

jakelazaroff wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by people who aren't guilty? The infraction here is allowing your vehicle to run a red light.

How do you allow a vehicle to run a red light that you aren't driving?

Easy:

1. Allow someone else to drive your vehicle

2. That person runs a red light

Your responsibility as the vehicle owner is to either not do step 1, or only do it for people whom you trust will not do step 2.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#569

Post by jakelazaroff » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 6:47 PM UTC

AngryData wrote: post #563

jakelazaroff wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the state obviously has photo evidence. So you need to show that either the photo was taken in error, that it misidentified your vehicle or that you weren't the legal owner at the time.

They have a photo of a car, but the car cannot commit a crime all on its own, someone has to be driving it. And if you have no idea who is driving when you charge them you are inevitably going to be charging innocent people.

When the police come across a car that's parked illegally, do you think they should need to wait around and figure out exactly who left it before issuing a ticket? Of course not; the vehicle owner is responsible for ensuring it's parked legally.

In the same way, it's the vehicle owner's responsibility to make sure their car is not driven through a red light. If they abdicate that responsibility, they aren't innocent!

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#570

Post by potato3732842 » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 6:47 PM UTC

TowerTall wrote: post #516

afcool83 wrote: post #239

I live in one of the areas they are actively testing/training in. Their cars consistently behave better and more safely than most human drivers that I’m forced to share the road with. As semi-autonomous and autonomous cars become the norm, I would adore to see obtaining a drivers license ratchet up in difficulty in order to remove dangerous human drivers from the road.

> I would adore to see obtaining a drivers license ratchet up in difficulty in order to remove dangerous human drivers from the road. That shift will happen all by itself. At some point, in a distant future, the price of the insurrance for human-driven cars will be so expensive that people because of that will choose a robot-driven car. It is all about risk (the risk of the insurrance company loosing money) and an er…

Will it though? Surely as driverless cars become viable the "I don't wanna do this, I actively don't care about doing it well" crowd will adopt them and insurance rates for everyone else will likely plummet.