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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#561

Post by jopsen »

microtonal wrote: post #405
throwaway48476 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA leaving NATO was floated. I don't know how realistic any of it is, just that these are the terms being negotiated.

At this point, is NATO still alive [1]? I don't think any other NATO country still trusts the US to help when a country has to invoke Article 5. NATO in its former shape has pretty much been dismantled over the course of last month. [1] NATO minus the US is still alive, of course.

There are a lot of regional frameworks within NATO. The US doesn't lead all of them. But some of them are probably just paper (not all).

I'd also find it hard to imagine the US not providing enablers like satellite targeting, etc. Or the US being unwilling to sell ammo.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#562

Post by nanotuber »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #495
nanotuber wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree with the implication here and expect the opposite. Ukraine peace (even an imperfect one) allows the US and Russia to work together to prevent Iran from getting a nuke. Ukraine won't get nukes in either scenario. An ongoing war forces Russia to rely on Iran, limiting its ability to work with US (and China), on isolating its nuclear program. DPRK nukes already exist and ROK is pressuring the US for permission…

DPRK redoubled its nuclear program and shut down disarmament talks when Kim saw Saddam Hussein get regime-changed after he willingly cooperated with UN inspectors to show that there were no WMDs. They realized that cooperating doesn't get you anywhere and the only insurance is through nukes. Now Ukraine, which gave up its warheads, is seeing the same thing. And even Canadians are starting to discuss a nuclear guarant…

The implication is that nuclear proliferation is linked to the US pausing Ukraine aid.

That's a gross mischaracterization.

I'll bet you 10 to 1 that Ukraine won't end up with nukes.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#563

Post by nanotuber »

ceejayoz wrote: post #505
nanotuber wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree with the implication here and expect the opposite. Ukraine peace (even an imperfect one) allows the US and Russia to work together to prevent Iran from getting a nuke. Ukraine won't get nukes in either scenario. An ongoing war forces Russia to rely on Iran, limiting its ability to work with US (and China), on isolating its nuclear program. DPRK nukes already exist and ROK is pressuring the US for permission…

> I don't know of any other latent nuclear states. Japan is sometimes described as a "screwdriver turn away from a bomb". They've got the materials, the know-how, the civilian nuclear program, and the rockets... and the geopolitics to be interested.

That's a good point.

Both the ROK and Japan though are cases where the US "pivoting to Asia" from Europe would make them less, not more, likely to pursue such a breakout. And in both cases, their incentives has existed prior to Ukraine.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#564

Post by nanotuber »

arunabha wrote: post #19

It would be one thing if there was a clear policy and adherence to it. In that case, you could discuss and reason in good faith. However there is no such indication that this decision is based on a considered policy. Trump's supporters would say that this is a result of not wanting the US being involved in foreign conflicts. That is a laudable goal, however that is not what is happening here. From the article > On Fr…

It's a negotiation tactic. It's trying to force Ukraine's hand to come to negotiations. That's adherent to many Trump policies:

- Force a resolution of the conflict

- Get Europe to pay for its own security

- Focus on Iran and the Middle East

- Pivot to competition with China

- Deter Sino-Russia cooperation

- Reduce US spending and deficit

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#565

Post by dmos62 »

Suppafly wrote: post #549
HPMOR wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is __so___ off topic, but the $ goes in front of the value for USD. It should be $500. Again, again, I know read the room, there's a tragic war going on, and the US is becoming complicit in the tragedy. But if we don't have time to be pedantic about monetary symbols then what good is the freedom we still possess.

People are downvoting this, but I'm always suspicious of comments online that imply they are from the US but mess up simple details that no native US user would mess up.

If you're saying that someone is lying, you should be more upfront. Who do you think it is?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#566

Post by _DeadFred_ »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #534
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike the wmd lie which was generated completely by the USA, all of Europe seems pretty concerned to the point they just approved another 650 billion in debt TODAY, something Europe REFUSED to do for what 40 years? Because X happened in the past does not mean that Y is X. Only people reaching hard to push an agenda would claim any similarity.

I think both are similar in that they obfuscate real discussion on the purpose of war and tradeoffs. If the goal is to be global police, that is a conversation worth having. Same if the goal is to show solidarity with our EU allies for its own sake. I think these other topics are manufactured consent.

This you?

"I think the "wmd equivalent" is the idea that Russia will move on Berlin if they're not contained in Ukraine."

Because now all of the sudden you are saying something totally different and nebulous 'world police' BS.

Why are your trying to equate Europe dramatically and instantly shifting their spending and EU policy to some nebulous 'global police' comment instead of addressing your original point, that you state no one actually believes 'Russia moving on Europe' is a real thing, and trying to equate it to the WMD lie?

You original point is BS, Europe believes to the tune of 650 billion just committed and breaking all of their long standing norms when it comes to defense that it is a real issue. Hense you having to move to some nebulous 'world police' nonsense.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#568

Post by FirmwareBurner »

542354234235 wrote: post #510
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular blue collar working class people from less developed areas don't want to be lectured by privileged big-city people that they're uneducated and only they know better than them what the correct candidate to vote for is. That patronizing attitude you showed is exactly the one the Democrats had and is exactly what got Trump elected. Until their attitude changes they will keep losing votes out of sheer spite.

>why did they vote against themselves >they will keep losing votes out of sheer spite Well, I guess that is the answer. You may not look good without a nose, but you sure taught your face a lesson.

Who's the face in this context? The only ones I see constantly screeching about Trump are Democrat voters, not Trump voters.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#569

Post by libertine »

kelipso wrote: post #555
libertine wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here comes the Russian propaganda... The nukes belonged to Ukraine. Just like Belarus nukes belonged to them. What is said by Russian propagandists is that Ukraine didn't have the launch codes - like it was some magical barrier that would prevent Ukraine from deploying the nukes if they wanted to. Like Ukrainian scientists didn't play a major a role in USSR nuclear development, and didn't have the know how to just us…

[flagged]

You're in the wrong place to spread Russia propaganda, here we go:

> After its dissolution in 1991, Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world and held about one third of the former Soviet nuclear weapons, delivery system, and significant knowledge of its design and production. Ukraine inherited about 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totaling approximately 1,700 nuclear warheads that remained on Ukrainian territory.[0]

[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_...

And the magical Russian propaganda launch codes that required Russia and USA to request Ukraine to decommission nukes, because Ukraine couldn't use any of those nukes.

By the way, what are the launch codes for nukes deployed by bombers lmao the bombers won't take off if Russia didn't insert the launch codes?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#570

Post by preisschild »

jopsen wrote: post #551
ozmodiar wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not joking, a lot of people I talk to have gone from anti nuke to hard pro nuke. I can see the future having a lot more nukes in it now that there's no reliable world order to believe in.

I doubt Denmark will get nukes, nor am I sure I'd be in favor of nukes. But I can see the argument that having the ability to nuke 50m Russians might deter them from attacking 5m Danes. And I'd personally hate to sit in a trench. Which is a real risk if Russia attacks the Baltics and only half of NATO shows up. So maybe we should get nukes and preposition them in the Baltics. I'm sure our politicians wouldn't want to…

> I doubt Denmark will get nukes, nor am I sure I'd be in favor of nukes.

Ideally, we'd have an EU military that takes control of nuclear weapons for example and automatically use them to retaliate when enemy nuclear weapons are launched against EU territory.

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