Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages • Hacker News Board

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#561

Post by LinXitoW » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:30 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #107

plopz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think server side statistical analysis can go a long way to detect stuff like that. Obviously its always a cat and mouse game between devs and cheaters, and there are always workarounds, but theres a lot more the devs could be doing without relying on invasive client side detection.

You can tune the aimbot to be as good as the server allows, maybe with a bit of variation to throw it off. And realistically, some real non-cheating players will by chance just have similar statistics to bots, especially since the bots will start doing their best to mimic real players. Also many players don't need to cheat all the time; just in that critical moment when it really matters. Didn't Magnus Carlsen say he…

Is the main problem with cheaters that it's unfair, or that it feels unfair/ruins the experience?

Because if you force all the cheaters to hide well enough to look like "normal" players, no one will know, and the game feel will not be negatively impacted. Outside of the tippy top of competition where money becomes involved, it's kind of irrelevant if the game is technically fair, as long as it feels fair to everyone.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#562

Post by devnullbrain » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:32 PM UTC

ho_schi wrote: post #404

First step. Second step? Ban games with kernel-level anti-cheat. It is not acceptable on Linux. Apple will also not accept that shit further, that said Apple lost relevance in gaming with Mantle and the M-Processors (both mean a lot of incompatibility). And Microsoft is regretting every choice in this regard: https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/12/24242947/microsoft-window... But that is a usual pattern. Microsoft makes…

> tainted, the system is not trustworthy.

I wonder what is worth more: the median installation of a free-to-play multiplayer game, or access to everything they do on that PC?

I won't be the first one to wonder this.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#563

Post by JambalayaJimbo » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:32 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #559

So, I'm not really into online multiplayer, but from a distance I keep wondering if this could be more easily mitigated by altering the incentive structure? What if online games track how well people do and sort them into tiers based on skill level? And then put people who are roughly evenly matched together. I am guessing that cheaters will naturally end up clumping together with each other, and maybe a smattering o…

Skilled players will NOT benefit from playing with others who are cheating, because their games will adapt to cheaters and not other skilled players.

Cheaters will also easily adapt to ranking systems by creating new accounts or intentionally de-ranking themselves.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#564

Post by moffkalast » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

dartharva wrote: post #446

ho_schi wrote: post #404

First step. Second step? Ban games with kernel-level anti-cheat. It is not acceptable on Linux. Apple will also not accept that shit further, that said Apple lost relevance in gaming with Mantle and the M-Processors (both mean a lot of incompatibility). And Microsoft is regretting every choice in this regard: https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/12/24242947/microsoft-window... But that is a usual pattern. Microsoft makes…

> Second step > "Ban games with kernel-level anti-cheat." > "It is the duty of game developers" It's hilarious that people actually think the publishers will ever have two hoots to give about notions like that. FWIW I agree we'd all be better off without those things but the entitlement to believe private businesses should run on your personal whims and that developers have a "duty" to make things only as you prefer…

That's right, they won't care. That's why any action will only come if Valve bans the practice from their store, because losing money is all publishers understand.

Every publisher that's greedily taken their products off Steam in an attempt to recuperate Valve's fee has sooner or later come crawling back because they weren't able to make a half usable platform to sell their stuff on. Valve holds a really large influence over the industry.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#565

Post by kjkjadksj » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

NeoTar wrote: post #517

soderfoo wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's just me being an idealist and projecting. I acknowledge what the analytics show, but always allude to the hypothetical casual loner segment who we lack data on because we pushed them away or we don't measure things relevant to them. I'm a boomer millenial , or whatever we're called now, and never took to online gaming, so I'm part of this segment. Casual loners are irrelevant to the monetization and in gam…

> I'm a boomer millenial, or whatever we're called now, and never took to online gaming, so I'm part of this segment. And you are not alone - apparently 53% of gamers (total) prefer single-player games, [although this falls to only 30% in the 16-19 years age-group]. https://www.midiaresearch.com/blog/most-gamers-prefer-single... I wonder how much of this is familiarity (i.e. I play games in the style I did when I was…

This is because the multiplayer games we played at 16 are 10-15 years old. You literally can’t go back to those happy memories again. You play halo 3 today you get wrecked by the people who haven’t stopped regularly playing in over a decade. And when you try and play the latest fps game you go this sucks, its not halo 3.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#566

Post by Der_Einzige » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

ok_dad wrote: post #188

Der_Einzige wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t matter in a world of AI powered hacks. Kernel level anti cheat isn’t detecting the yolov8 model fine tuned on the head of my enemies.

This video suggests you can catch this type of cheater without even a kernel level anti cheat: https://youtube.com/watch?v=x-EbjGSRyKA There’s a lot of other stuff in the video but if you skip the robot building parts at the beginning he talks about an anti cheat system he developed with another person.

Aimmy is still undetected everywhere except overwatch last I checked:

https://github.com/Babyhamsta/Aimmy

And it's likely that most detection systems can be trivially fooled by me ChatGPTing the code around the way mouse movements are implemented to act slightly different / use a different compiler or something to get different file hashes on the core tool.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#567

Post by kjkjadksj » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

gigatexal wrote: post #433

mrpippy wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add ‘-nobattleye’ to the Steam command-line launch options and you can play single-player without any installs. (Rockstar really should’ve made this a separate launch option like other games do)

Call of duty 6 launches the single player campaign from the main launcher and I noticed they advertise the anti cheat stuff being enabled (I forget what it’s called). For a single player game. Smh.

Achievements are serious business

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#568

Post by LinXitoW » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:37 PM UTC

dbrueck wrote: post #299

cmxch wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rejoinder: Blizzard’s Warden. No bootkit, no invasive system configuration required, even plays nice with “niche/enthusiast” platforms like Linux, doesn’t even care if your keyboard isn’t a bit niche too. Thought: If they expect a console level of lockdown, why do they bother writing for the PC? If I wanted a $game_console, I’d buy the console.

Hmm... isn't Blizzard's main FPS title Overwatch though? Cheating seems pretty common in that game (and there are tons of forum threads where people are complaining about it).

I have about 1500 hours in OW and OW2. I can't recall ever playing with/against a cheater.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#569

Post by insane_dreamer » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:37 PM UTC

I haven't been a hardcore gamer in nearly 2 decades (think Half-Life, original CS), so forgive the ignorance; but why do game publishers care whether users cheat? I mean it's not like it costs them money--you're buying the game either way. I guess maybe in a MOOG it ruins the experience for other players if you show up with a gazzilion resources, but other than those games, so what if you leveled up quickly? why spend dev effort on trying to stop it?

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#570

Post by ultrafez » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

insane_dreamer wrote: post #569

I haven't been a hardcore gamer in nearly 2 decades (think Half-Life, original CS), so forgive the ignorance; but why do game publishers care whether users cheat? I mean it's not like it costs them money--you're buying the game either way. I guess maybe in a MOOG it ruins the experience for other players if you show up with a gazzilion resources, but other than those games, so what if you leveled up quickly? why spen…

People might not buy a game if they don't think they'll get a fair play experience.