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Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

theguardian.com

561–570 of 576 posts

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#561
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> calling it Uno's isn't inconsistent with how we talk about Walmart's stores calling it Uno's isn't inconsistent with how we talk about Walmart's stores or Google's website No, calling it "Uno Corp's pizzeria" would be the equivalent. Nobody says they're "Going down to Walmart's" or "doing some research on Google's."

My grandmother would indeed refer to shopping at “WalMart’s” or “Penney’s”. Maybe a regional thing (she was from central PA)?

I can understand Penney's or Dayton's since those were people who founded eponymous stores. I suppose we have our answer -- people established a habit of the "S" when that type of naming was so common, and extended it instinctively to all stores even though there was never a Mr. Kmart or a Mr. Circuit City.

Fun tangent: I learned pretty recently that the southern California grocery chain is named after a man with the last name "Ralphs," so it never had an apostrophe and indeed shouldn't have one (in any language).

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an input problem before anything else I see where we have our wires crossed. I'm not considering the input problem because my software (KeenQuotes) parses the source document's apostrophes into their correct semantics (99.9% of the time). My issue is that, having discerned the correct English single quotation mark (straight, apostrophe, or closing), I have no way of encoding it into a document that retains the…

I totally appreciate the desire for more semantic encoding. I mean, it would be a dream if every sentence was semantically delimited, if every word was annotated with which hyphenation pattern it should follow for splitting across lines (when there are multiple), and whether the capital letter at the start of a sentence should remain capital even when converted to lowercase, because it's a capitalized proper noun. I…

> process it in some kind of XML notation

The output from KeenQuotes is used by KeenWrite. KeenWrite can generate text, HTML, XHTML, and PDF documents. Those output document formats lack correct the semantics because of UNICODE. As much as rolling my own XML notation would be fun, it won't work in practice---nobody would be able to publish their exported documents for viewing or general consumption. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one: I think UNICODE dropped the ball on English apostrophes where it didn't have to. Having one more character for curled apostrophes would have kept open the possibility of encoding unambiguous HTML documents (with respect to apostrophes/right single quotes for quotations; your point about other characters I quite appreciate).

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#563
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article doesn't mention it, but am I right in assuming this basically comes from McDonald's? There are a lot of places around the world that copy the "'s" where it doesn't exist natively, but only for restaurant names or similar -- like "Bob's" is the McDonald's clone in Brazil [1]. For whatever reason, it drives me crazy when I hear people refer to Pizzeria Uno as "Uno's". I've had conversations about it multi…

This sounds very Midwestern to me. Where I come from that would happen a lot. It wasn't necessarily that people didn't know the real name of the place. It functioned more like an inflection that helps to distinguish between the company, and a specific storefront operated by that company. Compare it to the distinction between "Alice" and "Alice's". Alice is the person, and Alice's is her house. For example, you you'd…

I come from Michigan, and have found that the two fastest ways people identify me are 1) calling fizzy soft drinks "pop" and 2) that I add an "s", e.g. King Sooper's or Meijer's.

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#564
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unlike say Russian where you need to distinguish between "лёд" and "льёт" somehow. But they are very different, no?) I'd think mistaking "лёд" for "йод" is easier.

Not as much as you would think. Russian has terminal de-voicing; so /d/ softens to a /t/, hence сад = /sat/. (Sort of; actually it's something in between, but the shift is noticable). And /l/ palatizes (becomes /lj/) before both е and ё, as in самолёт. (Actually the /j/ is built into ё of course, but somehow it seems helpful to recognize the commonality of the sounds when realized after /l/ - basically е becomes more…

I mean I'm native, just expressing personal opinion.

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#565
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unlike say Russian where you need to distinguish between "лёд" and "льёт" somehow. But they are very different, no?) I'd think mistaking "лёд" for "йод" is easier.

In IPA notation, it's the difference between [ʎɵ] and [ʎjɵ], and contrasting the two is fairly rare in natural languages; East Slavic is somewhat unusual in that regard. If someone's language does not have this contrast, it sounds very similar to them, and distinguishing the two can be very difficult. Even in languages where such a distinction exists, there's a tendency towards a merger - Serbo-Croatian is one exampl…

True, same for Chinese and their tones. One would think it should be pretty easy to distinguish them, but even when doing basic homework it sometimes hard to tell one from another.

Same for `chuáng` 床() vs `chuán` (船)。

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pt'être que demain ca ira mieux :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncdhLGjFTE The story I heard about how Rumantsch (~40k L1) became the 4th language of switzerland is that one day toward the middle of last century, after Mussolini said that rumantsch speakers were just a bunch of farmers who didn't know how to speak proper italian, the swiss people essentially said « Esti d'épais à marde ! » by voting to make it of…

Yes but actually the use is still going down, because so many people from those regions are moving to Zürich and larger cities. There are more speakers in Zürich now. I know some people that talk to there parents in Rumantsch that but most likely wont teach it to their children. It will survive but its not really thriving either. Other languages is a great way to push against an 'enemy' language, like the revival of…

Quebec French has almost 8m speakers, including L1 use in urban agglos, so (pace the simpatics giuvens of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n9OPhX6GYw ) it's in a much better position.

(after all, even Gian and Giachen speak german)

Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxMuCyzXgC4

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#567
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, loanwords is slightly different that completely inconsistent spelling - wouldn't you say? Imagine some would stick with original "bonjour" (Qubec), other more progressive would simplify to "bojur" and whatnote. You have the same with "colour" and "color". Or "night" and "nite". From my observatio where you have some language authority there is at least consisten spelling (and english spelling is all over the pl…

And that's why we have language locale codes: en_US vs. en_GB fr_CA vs fr_FR

Yes, but imagine not having to deal with those ;)

Besides, in case of Spanish the spelling is more uniform. Aforementioned locales are mostly for GUIs and regional wording differences. And the thread started with "unifying english spelling" which is just a mess…

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#568
post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dumb and inconsistent spelling is already a source of "annoyance" :P

Yeah but we in the Anglosphere have this wonderful phrase for people that get too hung up on it: “get over it.” I honestly don’t care if someone uses “color” or “colour” or makes ghoti jokes at the English language’s expense.

> Yeah but we in the Anglosphere have this wonderful phrase for people that get too hung up on it: “get over it.”

Unfortunately for the rest of the world outside of your beloved "anglosphere" using wrong spelling results in said "anglosphereian" being utterly butthurt.

Maybe the whole world should adopt universal language with saner spelling and leave english to anglosphere?

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#569
post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as much as you would think. Russian has terminal de-voicing; so /d/ softens to a /t/, hence сад = /sat/. (Sort of; actually it's something in between, but the shift is noticable). And /l/ palatizes (becomes /lj/) before both е and ё, as in самолёт. (Actually the /j/ is built into ё of course, but somehow it seems helpful to recognize the commonality of the sounds when realized after /l/ - basically е becomes more…

I mean I'm native, just expressing personal opinion.

[deleted]

Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a comment... The person you responded to is right. If you start mixing in "they" you're just confusing the listener, because they will assume you're now talking about some different people. I wouldn't have the patience to listen to somebody who speaks in that matter and deliberately makes their words cryptic.

Sexist assholes who become performatively confused and impatient and pretend they can't understand you and stop listening are just signaling that they are sexist assholes.

Do you think anybody at all wants to listen to you if you speak in this way?
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