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Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

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Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#561
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage Google incentivized the OEMs to do that. Amazon could have incentivized OEMs to do that also, but the business plan that Amazon pursued did not involve third parties building their own Kindle devices. > Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. This has never been true for Android i…

Microsoft also “incentivized” OEMs to not install competing browsers by threatening to remove their OEM licensing. Didn’t Google do something similar?

No. They just threatened to remove access to the Play Store.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I assumed there was some kind of internal identifier, which was the same between the two variants of the app, but I guess that identifier is just (a hash of?) the public key. Nevertheless, it seems like the Play Store had priority for providing updates. Tangentially, how does Android handle signing key rotation/expiration?

The identifier would be the package name baked into the APK, "com.amazon.mshop.android.shopping" in this case, likely the same for both versions. I'm sure there's several ways that issue could have happened but my first guess would be some OEM nonsense, a lot of them bundle Amazon and probably have poorly written updaters that can't tell you've modified the install.

This happened on Pixel devices, so the OEM is Google (which might be related). As I recall, no Amazon apps come preinstalled, but I have installed them from the Play Store first, then removed them, so maybe that could have flipped some flag too.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The identifier would be the package name baked into the APK, "com.amazon.mshop.android.shopping" in this case, likely the same for both versions. I'm sure there's several ways that issue could have happened but my first guess would be some OEM nonsense, a lot of them bundle Amazon and probably have poorly written updaters that can't tell you've modified the install.

This happened on Pixel devices, so the OEM is Google (which might be related). As I recall, no Amazon apps come preinstalled, but I have installed them from the Play Store first, then removed them, so maybe that could have flipped some flag too.

Interesting, yeah could be. Disabling Play Store auto-updates for the app if enabled might help.

Actually I'm not sure how you installed Amazon Shopping from the Amazon store anyways? I installed it a while back assuming they would have versions of Shopping and Kindle that would let me buy books, but they didn't seem to distribute those apps at all which I thought was strange. Still not seeing them there now.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you claim the platform you create is open, but use anticompetitive actions to retain control of it, you end up in a worse legal position than you would have by being clear that the platform is closed. Look at Microsoft. They have been found guilty of anticompetitive conduct related to their open Windows platform in multiple jurisdictions, but not so with XBox. Either never claim your platform is open, or refrain f…

This is a terrible incentive structure to set up for platforms. I get the reasoning, but I chose Android because it's open and I've never run into any of the anticompetitive problems people claim are so damaging. If Google had known that this was the deal at the beginning, I doubt they'd have created Android the way that they did and I wouldn't have an open platform to use—we'd just have two walled gardens. How is th…

> I get the reasoning, but I chose Android because it's open ....

I suspect you mean, you chose Android because Google _said_ it was open.

Plenty of tech people chose Android because they knew others would be able to carve out a workable system based on the open source bits even if Google didn't actually keep it open.

This ruling is basically against Google rug-pulling - for example, looking the other way on third-party billing until deciding (after critical mass) that you are going to start enforcing the use of Google's payment services for certain classes of apps. At that point you are destroying businesses with such back-tracking.

They were slapped down because Google claimed they were open because you allow third party stores, but creating roadblocks (Play services, DRM licensing and device certifications for streaming apps) and applying pressure or doing revenue-sharing schemes with device manufacturers on the back-end to keep them from making their own store.

It is very difficult for a judge to slap Apple down for antitrust when Apple has been very careful to keep consistent rules and to only change them when it is considered invariably considered a benefit to the App Store developer (subscription rate reductions after one year, small business program, opening up new categories of apps like legacy emulators).

It is hard to argue a point when Apple started abusing their position when their behavior is consistent. If the App Store is a bad deal then why has it grown to be such a juggernaut from nothing?

That is why the EU took a different philosophy with the DMA.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of something that was never in AOSP and so does not fit GGGGP's claim. You can still get your GPS location without Google Play Services exactly the same as you always could.

Sure, if apps choose to use those APIs you can still theoretically get a GPS fix. But tons of apps just use the Google Play Services APIs.

And Google heavily pushes them to, to the point of (when I last made an android app years ago) automatically adding its libraries to your project every time you open the project, then giving compiler warnings if you use the old ones.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happened on Pixel devices, so the OEM is Google (which might be related). As I recall, no Amazon apps come preinstalled, but I have installed them from the Play Store first, then removed them, so maybe that could have flipped some flag too.

Interesting, yeah could be. Disabling Play Store auto-updates for the app if enabled might help. Actually I'm not sure how you installed Amazon Shopping from the Amazon store anyways? I installed it a while back assuming they would have versions of Shopping and Kindle that would let me buy books, but they didn't seem to distribute those apps at all which I thought was strange. Still not seeing them there now.

Wow, you're right. Now I'm not sure of my own memory on this. I remember installing Kindle (or pre-Kindle Comixology...?) from somewhere and being able to buy on it, but then it got replaced with the version where you couldn't. Maybe that was because it got discontinued on the third-party app store (which I thought was Amazon's)?

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#567
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an unfair characterization of the situation. Epic v Google was decided in a jury trial, whereas Epic v Apple was decided by a judge (as preferred by both parties). The other big difference is that Tim Cook wasn't caught trying to destroy evidence, so the judge in that case had no reason to sanction Apple. https://www.fastcompany.com/90955785/google-deleted-chats-in... https://www.gibbonslawalert.com/2023/05/01…

"That's an unfair characterization of the situation." Gonna strongly disagree on that one. 1. Apple is not next, which is the main point 2. The sanctions are 100% irrelevant here? Why do you think they mattered? 3. The legal portion would have still been decided by a judge anyway - juries decide facts, not law. The judge decided the relevant market, etc. None of your points seem to matter as to whether Apple is next…

> 1. Apple is not next, which is the main point

Sure, I agree with that point. I disagree with the rest of your framing why, which was a dismissal that "Apple won on the same claims in front of a different judge". The judge in Epic v Google didn't render the verdict (as that was performed by the jury), while the judge in Epic v Apple did.

> 2. The sanctions are 100% irrelevant here? Why do you think they mattered?

Sanctions mattered as far as explicitly informing the jury that they were permitted to assume the worst against Google. If you don't think that might have impacted the jury's decision, I don't know what to say. The fact that the judge who later handed down the punishment thought that the sanctions were necessary should also be relevant to any harshness associated with his ruling.

> And yet, the judge decided today that he would not issue a “mandatory inference instruction” — one that would tell the jury they should proceed with the understanding that Google destroyed evidence that could have been detrimental to its case.

> Instead, there will be a “permissive” jury instruction — the jury “may” infer that the missing evidence might have helped Epic and hurt Google.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/1/23984902/judge-james-dona...

> 3. The legal portion would have still been decided by a judge anyway - juries decide facts, not law. The judge decided the relevant market, etc.

Yes, Donato decided the punishment (to the extent that the law gave him discretion to do so), but it was a jury that decided that Google exercised illegal monopolistic behavior. The judge doesn't have discretion to completely disregard the jury's verdict, as per the seventh amendment.

The aforementioned behavior on Google's behalf certainly didn't help garner any favor with Donato.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#568
post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible incentive structure to set up for platforms. I get the reasoning, but I chose Android because it's open and I've never run into any of the anticompetitive problems people claim are so damaging. If Google had known that this was the deal at the beginning, I doubt they'd have created Android the way that they did and I wouldn't have an open platform to use—we'd just have two walled gardens. How is th…

> I get the reasoning, but I chose Android because it's open .... I suspect you mean, you chose Android because Google _said_ it was open. Plenty of tech people chose Android because they knew others would be able to carve out a workable system based on the open source bits even if Google didn't actually keep it open. This ruling is basically against Google rug-pulling - for example, looking the other way on third-pa…

I already responded to the condescending "you didn't really know what you were choosing" comment below. The tldr is that I knew exactly what I was choosing and have never had any issues with it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41772355

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#569

Love this, but Apple's the big offender not Google. Google's already pretty open, and they approve most apps. It's not hard to get your app on the Play Store, it's Apple and the App Store that make publishing your apps a nightmare. Hope to see things start opening up though. Very happy for Epic and developers everywhere.

No, it's the opposite. Apple has reasonable process with human support Google Play is full of trip wires, you trigger one and your account is gone, your career of independent developer is over

I think the concept of lifetime bans from big tech platforms needs to be reevaluated, but there is not much difference between Google's "trip wires" and Apple's "red lines": your app is not allowed to exist either way.

Patreon faces an existential crisis right now: use in-app purchases or the app will be removed. Game streaming wasn't banned right up until it was. No amount of support has helped with these red lines - not even the committee they allegedly created for developers to challenge the rules. Their support has only helped in the absurd cases, like demanding WordPress implement IAPs or rejecting dictionaries for containing swear words.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#570
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the situation for desktop games right now, something Epic is profiting immensely from. It's an extremely annoying situation for users, having a dozen launcher/store apps around contributing to bloat.

I'm getting a free game from Epic every week for having their launcher installed. Competition is awesome.

I think you can even just grab them via www.
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