Earlier quoted context omitted.
My experience was similar, right down to the $10,000 worth of options. Eventually the company went public and those options would have been worth $5M if I'd had the foresight (and cash) to exercise them (which I didn't). The co-founders did not have exercise costs or AMT of course. It is an unfair system indeed. I'd encourage those seeking to be early engineers to go work at a FAANG for a few years before joining a s…
Wait, you couldn’t find the 10k cash to exercise 5m worth of options?
Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
561–570 of 943 posts
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#562The only fair way to analyze this is by looking at opportunity cost, which isn’t what TFA does. Founders often have slightly higher market value (though not always) than first employees, so they are giving up more to go the startup route. Separately, TFA further underestimates founder risk as they are typically not taking salary during pre-seed, and no or low salary during seed. However employees 1-5 typically get mo…
I've seen startups from a founder perspective and from an employee perspective (VC style startups). I agree there is more stress as a founder, but people really underestimate the toll as an early employee - the gap is smaller than many people think. Particularly those ideal missionary-type early employees, they take on just as much mental ownership burden as the founders. It is also an all-day job. Let me tell you, when the money runs low, it is immensely stressful as an early employee - it is both hard to be the one making the decisions and it is hard to not be the one making the decisions. The ability to walk away isn't a benefit, it's a burden.
Their jobs can be different (or can be very much the same - depends on people and every startup is its own beast) with founders needing to deal with fundraising, board management, and ultimately having the impossible problems land at their feet which is often out-of-scope (and out-of-sight) for early employees. But the same core problem exists for both - your actions will dictate the success of the company.
And there is a huge amount of understanding of the founder burden and support for them, from financial to emotional to reputational. Where are the support networks for early employees? People will say the founders, but this is a load of crap for the same reason that founders rely on relationships with other founders rather than talking to their board or teammates.
Early employee is probably the worst engineering gig in Silicon Valley on most dimensions. Unless you just want to 0 to 1 build things. Then I haven't seen a job that can compare.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#563Three interesting part of the discussion: (1) The opportunity cost to the founder of taking early liquidity: If a founder cashes out 10% of their position for $500k @ $25M Series A valuation, that de-risks a lot of their personal life. But when the startup ends up selling for $250M, that $500k of 'early' selling would have been worth $5M (less any dilution between rounds) - hard not to regret the choice in that case…
> If you were an employee and had $200k total value in your options, and you could sell 10%, you're getting $20k.
It obviously depends on your financial situation, but having the option vs not will certainly matter to some employees. Not to mention that the stake could well be worth $0 in the future.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#564Many companies don’t get to Series A and very few companies get to Series B. Even if they do get to Series A or B, they won’t be able to raise the amounts you see in the news and have heavy dilution. Very few founders have double digits percent ownership by Series B and Series C. Liquidity of $400k or more is a lot and isn’t available for many founders. All of this after 7 to 10 years of working 80+ hours week, no so…
Unless you're doing some niche b2b thing where you have no personal connections (in which case, why are you doing it at all?), the differential financial returns of going with VC are often negative, if not neutral. The main diff is you can "fail up" into the investor class if you prove your worth but the business goes sideways. But even that is a dissatisfying career for most founder-type people.
To whoever needs to read this: start your own company, avoid raising money.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#565Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if they give 1-2% and good market rate salary (~200k/y) to a founding engineer? Is that still a bad deal?
Market salary with stock upside plus the chance to level up a job title has potential to be a great deal
Titles obviously don’t transfer back to big companies, we had plenty of ex-cofounders and CTOs hired into the same junior roles as anyone else who could LeetCode.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#566Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the “startup myth” that lets the scam perpetuate. The world has changed. Google IPOed just a few years after it founded. Now Stripe, objectively one of the most successful startups ever, still hasn’t IPOed after 15 years. Liquidity preference Dilution Even the F in FAANG had a major movie made about early employees getting shafted by dilution! FAANG is 5 companies founded a long time ago. Since then VCs have…
Many huge private companies, like Stripe, have found ways to provide liquidity to their employees without going public, e.g., through tender offers. Some more recent examples of companies where early employees did very well would be AirBnB, Coinbase and DoorDash.
Consider that if you could make 400k (including liquid stock) in compensation at FAANG but you take 180k at the startup, you're basically betting 220k a year on the company. Except unlike any other company you bet 220k on, you won't get a board seat, you won't get access to key metrics, your influence will be dominated by "real" investor's influence.
If your NW is less than 10M, which presumably it is, anyone who's heard even heard of the words "Kelly Criterion" would tell you your nuts for betting 220k a year on one startup. And yet, you get treated like "an employee" and not like "an investor" for taking that insane risk.
So YC has invested in 5000 companies, and you can name 3 that had top-notch outcomes, thats 0.06% success - and you had to work like a dog to realize it! And that money was locked up. Those same early employees could have taken that $220k/ year, put it on Bitcoin or Apple stock, and retired off that. And Bitcoin and Apple were much easier "picks" than an given startup.
The math simply does not add up and the whole system runs off mystique and naivety. And I've worked at startups that gave me a hard time about asking about outstanding shares, about asking about the cap table, about asking about liquidation preference. This is _critical_ information before you invest a significant portion of your life and net worth on a company and that they're guarded about and it should raise the ultimate alarm bells that they don't fall over themselves to explain every part of it.
There's a bunch of propaganda out there "Explaining ISOs, written by a16z" that's a smoke screen of the truth. The math does not add up.
The dream startup employee is really really good at Transformer architectures and really really bad at personal finance. Fortunately for startups, a shocking amount of these people exist. But it doesn't change that if sharp financiers looked at employee equity packages at startups objectively, every single one would agree it's a scam deal.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#5671. They are providing jobs 2. They are responsible for growing business 3. They are accountable to not only the employees but to board and investors, etc.
They take money off the table because they are in a much different position than say an engineer. It might be bad to say, but the engineer is responsible for one part of the business, the founders and CEO etc are responsible for all aspects of the business, and should be compensated appropriately for it, whether secondaries or higher salaries etc.
Also, secondaries at seed and A are not as common as they were during the 2020-2022 run up.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#568Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Bay Area housing market is too competitive for this. If you’re renting a room in your early 20s then sure just have fun, any tech job should cover it. If you want to own a place to raise a family in by your 30s, and you don’t have some exogenous source of wealth, you’re going to need every dollar of liquid compensation you can possibly get.
Or you can just live somewhere else. The world doesn't end at Bay Area.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#569Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honest question: do people with young kids do these jobs well, or at all? I'm sure the answer is sometimes, yes. But, as a 41-yr-old father of two kids (6, 2) and a wife in PE, the pace and stress strike me as contradictory to being present in a marriage, being present with my kids, managing my health, etc. I'd love to hear how the people with families manage (or fail) this pace?
There are many reasons that startups tend to have young employees. As someone in a similar place in my life, I'd never take a job like that either.
Re: Silicon Valley's best kept secret: Founder liquidity
#570Three interesting part of the discussion: (1) The opportunity cost to the founder of taking early liquidity: If a founder cashes out 10% of their position for $500k @ $25M Series A valuation, that de-risks a lot of their personal life. But when the startup ends up selling for $250M, that $500k of 'early' selling would have been worth $5M (less any dilution between rounds) - hard not to regret the choice in that case…
> If a founder cashes out 10% of their position for $500k @ $25M Series A valuation, that de-risks a lot of their personal life. But when the startup ends up selling for $250M, that $500k of 'early' selling would have been worth $5M (less any dilution between rounds) - hard not to regret the choice in that case even if hedging is going to be the correct choice 99% of the time. IMHO, it's very easy not to regret, with…
When you sell your stocks before 5 years of holding period has passed, you pay significantly higher taxes. So you don't get 500k net, you get 500k gross, or probably 300k net. Which makes the de-risking less compelling.
[0]: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/q/qsbs-qualified-small-bu...