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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

972mag.com

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#561

Post by underlipton »

sequoia wrote: post #362

I'm disturbed by the idea that an AI could be used to make decisions that could proactively kill someone. (Presumably computer already make decisions that passively kill people by, for example, navigating a self-driving car.) Though there was a human sign-off in this case, it seems one step away from people being killed by robots with zero human intervention which is about one step away from the plot of Terminator. I…

>I wonder what the alternative is in a case like this.

Don't Create The Torment Nexus

I think that once you start from the viewpoint that you're not going to create the Torment Nexus, it becomes a lot easier to avoid creating the Torment Nexus.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#562

Post by solardev »

LordShredda wrote: post #491
cm2187 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We crossed the line of machines that automatically kill a long time ago. A heat seeking missile, or a shell that detects and target tanks [1] are effectively doing that. Software selects the target. The soldier only points in the general direction. AI is only a small technical increment. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMArt_155

But you know soldiers are in a tank, and you know a pilot is in a plane. Who's in an apartment?

It's never really that clear-cut, though. Human drone operators, pilots, etc. routinely send missiles into cars, buildings, weddings, etc. that cause collateral damage, killing or maiming innocents and passers-by. Sometimes it's an accident, but not always.

And that's just when we even try to limit damage, vs indiscriminately firebombing or nuking entire cities.

We shouldn't demand perfect accuracy of AI when we don't expect the same of humans. Long ago, we decided collateral damage in war is acceptable, especially when you end up winning the war and there's nobody left to prosecute you except historians =/

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#563

Post by random9749832 »

yonisto wrote: post #555
random9749832 wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is no different than chemotherapy Say that to the parents of the aid workers whose vehicle was used as a bullseye: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68711282

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#564

Post by Adverblessly »

pphysch wrote: post #521
Adverblessly wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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For people who are actually interested in this topic instead of bad-faith race-baiting, there is a ton of investigative journalism and academic analysis of the methods of the actually-existing Israel lobby. Stephen Walt & John Mearsheimer "The Israel Lobby" Al Jazeera's "The Lobby" Mondoweiss, EI, etc.

> Al Jazeera's "The Lobby"

I hope you at least appreciate the irony of citing Qatari propaganda sources (who for example claimed that the torture, rape, mutilation and murder of Israeli women and children was not done by Hamas but by some random unrelated angry Palestinians who breached the security fence during Hamas' honorable attack) as source for Israel's shady dealings.

I'm sure it is only race-baiting to point out that when Jews engage in lobbying it is considered blackmail and bribery, but somehow non-Jews are only capable of the correct form of lobbying, of "exercising soft power" or "using trade to strengthen peaceful relations", arranging peaceful protests that demonstrate the organic will of the people and not evil protests meant to blackmail people in power.

To be extra clear, in the previous comment and in this one, I'm seriously urging you and GP to reexamine yourself and what leads you to believe that somehow country #28 in world GDP with 0.5% of global GDP is somehow able to blackmail and bribe the entire world and if maybe there's something else within you that leads you to seek out, trust and spread the belief in that claim.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#565

Post by FireBeyond »

edanm wrote: post #502
ahmadss wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that even mean? 972 is a local Israeli outfit, with contributors from Israel and Palestine. They have sources within the IDF, sources who may be center-left leaning and are "done" with how the far-right coalition is running this war and they are blowing the whistle on this practice.

972 is very far left, at least compared to the standard Israeli position, I believe. I'm happy they're reporting, but they have a very obvious bias, and I'd take anything they say with a huge amount of caution.

> 972 is very far left, at least compared to the standard Israeli position, I believe.

Netanyahu, who has been PM of Israel on 3 occasions, for 16 years, and was one of the people responsible for a policy of funding and arming Hamas (so Israel didn't have to answer awkward questions like "Arafat and the PLO are willing to come to the peace table and make a two state solution work, why aren't you?"), figuring it better to have an extremist opponent than a moderating one is categorized as being from very right wing to extreme right wing.

So I would say that the very vast majority of reporting is probably left to far left of Netanyahu and his party position. That doesn't obviously discount their remarks, let alone your implication that by default, we should assume their words might not be accurate.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#566

Post by jijji »

jijji wrote: post #9

that would explain the news today of how Israel killed seven aid workers in Gaza [0] [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-we-know-so-fa...

here's another story today from France24 about the over-reliance on AI driven targetting may have been responsible for the airstrike on April 1st 2024 that killed seven aid workers in Gaza [0]

[0] https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-wo...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#567

Post by whearyou »

edanm wrote: post #502
ahmadss wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that even mean? 972 is a local Israeli outfit, with contributors from Israel and Palestine. They have sources within the IDF, sources who may be center-left leaning and are "done" with how the far-right coalition is running this war and they are blowing the whistle on this practice.

972 is very far left, at least compared to the standard Israeli position, I believe. I'm happy they're reporting, but they have a very obvious bias, and I'd take anything they say with a huge amount of caution.

Given what you’re saying is recognized throughout the Jewish world, your downvotes indicate a serious predispositions for the visitors of this forum

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#568

Post by [deleted] »

ben_w wrote: post #367
goethes_kind wrote: post #186

Israel's evil keeps taking me by surprise. I guess when people go down the path of dehumanization there are truly no limits to what they are ready to do. But what is even sadder is that the supposedly morally superior western world is entirely bribed and blackmailed to stand behind Israel. And then you have countries like Germany where you get thrown in jail for being upset at Israel.

> And then you have countries like Germany where you get thrown in jail for being upset at Israel. Back in 2002 or so, a friend of mine swore blind that an American had been arrested for wearing a "give whirled peas a chance" T-shirt — which is an anecdotal way of saying: are you sure you've got the full story? I'm learning German by listening to „Langsam Gesprochene Nachrichten“ by Deutsche Welle, and it definitely…

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#569

Post by FireBeyond »

tguvot wrote: post #329
dang wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why we merged those threads into this one. From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html : Submitters: " Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter. " - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Readers might still find it helpful to read both pieces, of course.

972 this is leftist "blog magazine" with questionably sourced material. while there might be some truth to core claim of automated system (which IDF confirmed that exists), rest of claims probably outcome of "broken phone". But everybody will use it as statement of undeniable fact in order to evolve as usual discussion into "genocidal Israel indiscriminately killing civilians in droves and performs ethnic cleaning an…

It is fairly difficult to be to the right of some of Netanyahu's and Likud's positions, so disdainfully referring to it as some "leftist blog magazine" is more just an attempt to denigrate.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#570

Post by hluska »

CommieBobDole wrote: post #128
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

It's also interesting (and I guess typical for end-users of software) how quickly and easily something like this goes from "Here's a tool you can use as an information input when deciding who to target" to "I dunno, computer says these are the people we need to kill, let's get to it". In the Guardian article, an IDF spokesperson says it exists and is only used as the former, and I'm sure that's what was intended and…

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