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Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

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Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#561

Post by nottorp »

askonomm wrote: post #99
_fat_santa wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key difference I see in Apple's app store business is that it's a monopolistic marketplace model. If Apple allowed an alternative to the app store then this wouldn't be an issue. Take Microsoft and Windows as an example, they have the Microsoft store which operates as a marketplace with rules but they don't get the same scrutiny because there are alternatives. Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fin…

But as of iOS 17.4 they do allow alternative app stores in EU.

They don't really. Money matters aside, the apps still need to be approved by Apple. They could drop all fees and it would still mean they don't allow alternatives.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#562

Post by echelon »

SllX wrote: post #489
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Epic also intentionally broke agreements with Apple before. This is funny to point out since they did it specifically to sue over it (you pretty much can't other wise). So Apple has their draconian 30% cut or there's literally no other way to have an application run on iOS policy, you can't challenge it without breaking it so you can sue, and because you broke it to sue you are now permanently barred from every maki…

They had the alternative of pulling their software on principle and suing, but they wanted the fight they would have by having Apple suspend and then terminate their developer accounts to bring more public opinion to their side, and they sure got the fight. As a developer enrolled in the program, it would have been hard to argue they didn’t have standing as long as what they were arguing had plausible legal merit (it…

There is no alternative to mobile computing. Both vendors have draconian rules.

These are devices so essential to modern functioning that the regulators need to come and tell both Apple and Google that unlimited web installs are user rights.

Epic is right. Apple and Google are monopolies over an entire class of computing, and it's a 100% artificial racket.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#563

Post by kevingadd »

misnome wrote: post #452
kevingadd wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criticizing defects in a product or criticizing a vendor's misbehavior doesn't make you automatically a "bad actor". A healthy vendor/customer relationship involves having channels where this criticism can be exchanged without putting the vendor or the customer in a bad position, and the criticism results in a better product. Instead, bug reports go into a black hole because Apple doesn't care, and they especially do…

> Calling them a bad actor is ridiculous. This is an absurd take. They very deliberately and publicly breached their agreement with apple, sued them when they got kicked out for it, and lost. If that isn’t a textbook description of a bad actor then what the hell _would_ count for you?

By what metric is Epic Games having an account a "threat" to iOS? Are they going to hack end-users' devices? Collect their private information without permission and sell it to third parties? All just by having a developer account?

Isn't the app review system combined with iOS's robust security infrastructure supposed to prevent such an outcome? If a company as big and legally accountable as Epic, with a long track record, is so dangerous - by that standard lots of other developer accounts should be closed down too, just to be safe.

It's perfectly reasonable to go "I don't want to do business with Epic due to how they've treated me" but being your opponent is different from being a bad actor. Using language like this pointlessly inflates the magnitude of what Epic actually did and misrepresents the nature of their conflict with Apple.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#564

Post by nottorp »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #265
hizanberg wrote: post #18

If I had a Customer that spent years relentlessly complaining about my Company, I know I wouldn't want to have them as a Customer. It does present an interesting question on whether a Company can be forced to have a bad actor as a Customer, I guess this will be decided in the lawsuits to come.

In Europe there is the concept of “Forced to contract”. You can be forced to accept a customer. Applies to many monopolies.

Single payer health insurance, for example :)

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#565

Post by zarzavat »

samatman wrote: post #371
andersa wrote: post #40

The fines Apple is going to collect for intentionally failing to comply with the DMA are going to be of Epic proportions, exceeding any profit they could have gotten by continuing to steal 30% from society. Ready your popcorn buckets for the next few months/years. They will likely be making an example out of Apple - after all Apple and Google are the reason for this legislation to exist in the first place. > In the n…

Sounds like Apple should exit the European market then. No one is forcing them to do business there, and it only accounts for 10% of their revenue.

Tim Cook would be deposed if he pulled out of the EU market. There’s no way that shareholders are going to allow Apple to leave that much money on the table, it’s unthinkable.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#566

Post by _aavaa_ »

jimscard wrote: post #543
jsnell wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have any other companies announced credible plans for a competing app store? I'm at least not aware of any, which would absolutely make Epic their main competitor. It is pretty hilarious how people think some US court judgement would have any relevance on EU anti-trust regulation.

You’re missing a key point by calling this a “competing app store”. That’s not what it would be. It would simply be Epic’s app store with Epic’s apps in it, the purpose being to maximize Epic’s revenue on Epic’s games. Apple, in case you haven’t noticed, isn’t a game company — they don’t compete with Epic. Microsoft does. Steam does. Apple doesn’t. In fact, given that Epic games haven’t been on iOS in ages, there’s l…

Apple absolutely competes with Epic. Mobile in general and iOS in particular are massive markets, both player base and profit wise, for gaming.

On iOS apple has decreed that they deserve 30% of that action. And is now banning the developer of one of the most popular games (on any platform).

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#567

Post by SllX »

stefan_ wrote: post #523
SllX wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic also intentionally broke agreements with Apple before. Non-discriminatory doesn’t mean they have no grounds to terminate Epic’s developer accounts, and Epic is continuing to make themselves look untrustworthy by trying to publicly and explicitly shank Apple. Spotify is also trying to shank Apple in all the same places Epic is, but they also didn’t go behind Apple’s back to deceive the prior review process in con…

These words have a specific, narrow meaning and your laymans impression is the opposite of helpful in interpreting them.

In the context of standards essential patents, yes. In the case of DMA compliance, it’s a bit more TBD until the EC issues more guidance and actual legal precedent is set, but what we do know is that the DMA still allows Apple to set terms that 3rd parties must both agree with and abide by which means having an active developer account with Apple. If Apple believes Epic will not abide by the terms in good faith, they don’t have any reason to maintain a relationship with Epic, and Epic has given Apple plenty of reasons.

The real and interesting question is whether they can do this before they prove Epic’s non-compliance with the new terms.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#568

Post by nottorp »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #266
kevingadd wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criticizing defects in a product or criticizing a vendor's misbehavior doesn't make you automatically a "bad actor". A healthy vendor/customer relationship involves having channels where this criticism can be exchanged without putting the vendor or the customer in a bad position, and the criticism results in a better product. Instead, bug reports go into a black hole because Apple doesn't care, and they especially do…

> Criticizing defects in a product or criticizing a vendor's misbehavior doesn't make you automatically a "bad actor" Doing so publicly certainly does. I would terminate business with a client if they started airing out their issues about me on Twitter. That said, I’m not Apple. At a certain size, you lose the right to reject bad actors.

You don't control access to half of the world's mobile devices do you? :)

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#569

Post by concinds »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #463
SllX wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic also intentionally broke agreements with Apple before. Non-discriminatory doesn’t mean they have no grounds to terminate Epic’s developer accounts, and Epic is continuing to make themselves look untrustworthy by trying to publicly and explicitly shank Apple. Spotify is also trying to shank Apple in all the same places Epic is, but they also didn’t go behind Apple’s back to deceive the prior review process in con…

>Epic also intentionally broke agreements with Apple before. This is funny to point out since they did it specifically to sue over it (you pretty much can't other wise). So Apple has their draconian 30% cut or there's literally no other way to have an application run on iOS policy, you can't challenge it without breaking it so you can sue, and because you broke it to sue you are now permanently barred from every maki…

> This is funny to point out since they did it specifically to sue over it (you pretty much can't other wise).

Are you a lawyer? You sound awfully assertive in making this claim, especially with the slight contempt/patronizing tone.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#570

Post by lamontcg »

andersa wrote: post #62
Despegar wrote: post #57

Epic perhaps thought Apple might show them grace after the lawsuit in the US. A kind of repeat of the Apple-Samsung litigation where everyone has a "it's just business" attitude and keeps doing business together while simultaneously suing each other. Apple on the other hand has decided they will show them no quarter. I don't think they're being emotional about it. I think it's to show every other developer that they…

Epic doesn't care whether Apple shows "grace", or needs them to, they are going in by force with the backing of the EU legislation. It might just take a year or two longer to get through the courts. They can hold out that long without any problems, preparing their store in the background.

Yeah, its really weird to appeal to the noble intentions of a corporation.

They're both just engaged in business.

I can believe that Apple is acting incredibly badly in this case without needing to fluff up Epic Games at all.

Apple and Samsung could sue each other and do business with each other because the stakes were lower and they were more codependent.

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