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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#561

Post by evandev »

bilsbie wrote: post #494
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

If heat pumps get inefficient at low temps could we not program them to run full blast during the warmest parts of the day and preheat the home. Thus needing to run less at night.

With an air to water heat pump, you typically add a buffer tank that among other things helps keep preheated water warm. It is basically a hot water tank so doesn't last through the night

However for other hydronic applications such as solar water heaters there is typically a thermal storage tank which can help store heat like a battery.

Keep in mind a few things. One is some heat pumps are now operating down around -22*F. Second is geothermal is a water to water heat pump that isn't affected as much by the limitations of air temperature (but has other limitations). Third is radiant heat flooring with tubes in concrete acts as a thermal storage tank. Finally heat pumps for heating work best at low temperature hydronic water and can also be used for other applications such as DHW (domestic hot water) which needs to be at slightly higher temperatures than a buffer tank has.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#562

Post by kccqzy »

interroboink wrote: post #485
kccqzy wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the expensive Bay Area, I got a quote of only $10k to install a heat pump. It was basically the same price to install a new gas furnace + AC for summer.

But what kind? For instance, a mini-split in an apartment is quite different from the 3-ton forced-air system I described. People use the term "heat pump" to sometimes describe quite different things, so it's hard to know what's apples-to-apples.

It's a forced-air system sized for a moderately insulated 1300 sqft home. Don't know how many tons or the SEER rating.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#563

Post by evandev »

lsllc wrote: post #525
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

The big issue in New England is that heat pumps (ASHP or GSHP) are only really possible for new builds. Most existing homes will likely be forced hot water and there isn't any heat pump out there that will produce water hot enough (e.g. 185F), so your only option is to retrofit ducting (or go mini-split but then you need one in every room). Even homes with ducted AC, it's likely they are sized for cooling only, not h…

While I agree that a heat pump can't work with hot water baseboard, there is an alternative.

The alternative is removing the baseboard and with a calculated heat load, replacing with panel radiators which run with much lower temperatures. The retrofit wouldn't be too difficult (compared to ducting) as it would involve running 1/2 inch PEX to each room.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#564

Post by valenterry »

bagels wrote: post #214
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Modern great heatpumps, installed correctly, are rather between 5 and 7 in terms of COP. Also, even the best gas heating systems only achieve 90% efficiency. In other words, it either be very very very cold in your area, or you have to screw up the installation before gas has lower running(!) costs.

Besides that, a gas power plant easily achieves 33% of efficiency for generating electricity from gas, rather 50% for the new ones. In other words, if the price for electricity is more than 3 times as high as gas, there is a high chance that it's due to tax, regulations, etc. Though, the price for maintaining a stronger power grid comes on top.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#565

Post by gmerc »

mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Essentially: We will only accept climate change action if it’s not degrading our standard of living which is predicated on consuming unsustainably.

The end.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#566

Post by horns4lyfe »

gmerc wrote: post #565
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Essentially: We will only accept climate change action if it’s not degrading our standard of living which is predicated on consuming unsustainably. The end.

Well good luck trying to get people to lower their standard of living in pursuit of an abstract solution to a problem that can only be represented with predictive modeling.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#567

Post by Retric »

sundaeofshock wrote: post #557
thoughtstheseus wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No such thing as a global gas price. Natural gas pricing is regional as it cannot be easily transported.

US exported 6.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in 2022. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/imports-and-...

Yea at rather insane prices due to the Ukraine war.

In 2022 the US imported 3 trillion CF, exported 6.9 trillion cubic feet, and extracted 43.8 trillion CF.

By comparison in 2015 we only exported 1.8 trillion CF.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#568

Post by losvedir »

Dowwie wrote: post #152
readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

where are you located? I was quoted 14k to replace a gas furnace for a single family in NJ

I had our gas furnace replaced this past November, a 100k BTU Rheem one, for $2,200. This was outside Chicago in Northwest Indiana, though, which is a pretty low cost of living area.

I spent some time trying to get a heat pump instead, but no one around here was familiar with them. I worried that if it failed service would be a pain.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#569

Post by g8oz »

lazide wrote: post #426
yterdy wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the hissy fit plumbers made over no-flush urinals.

Turns out they were right about that one though.

Are you sure? I still see them around in some local shopping malls.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#570

Post by jbarham »

smcleod wrote: post #384
bagels wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Natural gas won’t stay cheap. It was cheap here in Australia 10 years ago and now it’s so expensive no one can afford to run gas heating and it’s only going up. Now (thankfully) the government has banned the installation of new gas heating and a lot of people are getting rid of gas cooking, hot water heating etc… it’s for the best.

The only reason that natural gas prices in Australia have gone up in the past 10 years is that gas producers in the eastern states were able to start exporting gas as LNG.

As of 2023, Australia is the world's second largest LNG exporter (source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1262074/global-lng-expor...) after the US (take that Russia!) and ahead of Qatar. Great for the gas exporting cartel but not so great for ordinary Australians in eastern states who now pay the same for gas as people in Tokyo. (And Aussies wonder why manufacturers keep leaving...)

Banning domestic gas usage for new homes (which the fools running Victoria, the state I live in, have done) will do nothing for emissions but will mean that the gas cartel can make even more money exporting LNG to Asia. Bravo!

The exception is Western Australia which is also a massive LNG exporter but has stricter domestic reservation requirements than the eastern states.

All of the above has been extensively documented at https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/ (source: https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww....).

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