Earlier quoted context omitted.
What a reductive way to describe learning art. The similarities are merely surface level. > Given that there is no comprehensive model for how humans actually learn things, that would be an unfeasible requirement. That is precisely why we should not be making this comparison.
I’m being told repeatedly that the similarities are surface level, but no one seems to be able to give an example of a deep difference
Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
561–570 of 710 posts
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#562Earlier quoted context omitted.
What a bummer of a thing to say. Those millions/billions of people matter a great deal.
They matter but not under the current system. Artists are a rarely paid profession, and there are professional artists out there but there’s now a huge amount of people that will never contact an artist for work that used to only be human powered. It’s not personal for me. I understand that desire to resist the inevitable but it’s here now. For what it’s worth I never use midjourney or dalle or any of the commercial…
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#563Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're assuming this is open-shut, you're wrong. I asked this specifically as someone who works in security. A court is going to have to decide where the line is between DRM and malware in adversarial-AI tools.
I'm not. Malware is one thin, passive data poisoning is another. Mapmakers have long used such devices to detect/deter unwanted copying. In the US such 'trap streets' are not protected by copyright, but nor do they generate liability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#564Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing is people want the benefits of having their stuff public but not bear the costs. Scraping has been mostly a solved problem especially when it comes to broad crawling. Put it under a login, there, no more AI "stealing" your work.
I don't think that's true at all. Images and text get reposted with or without consent, often without attribution. It wouldn't make it right for the AI companies to scrape when the original author doesn't want that but someone else has ignored their wishes and requirements. Basically, what good is putting your stuff behind login or some other restrictive viewing method if someone just saves the image/text? I think it…
Now for the second type, representing models such as Stable Difusion and Chat GPT, it would be required to have their trained model freely available to anyone and any resulting output would not be copyrightable. It may be a more fairer way of allowing anyone to harness the power of AI models that contain essentially the knowledge of all man kind, but without giving any party an unfair monopoly on it.
This should be easily enforceable for big corporations, else it would be too obvious if they are trying to pass one type model as another or even keep the truth about their model from leaking. It might not be as easy to keep small groups or individuals from breaking those rules, but hey, at least it evens the playing field.
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#565Earlier quoted context omitted.
At full size it's super obvious - I made a side-by-side: https://i.imgur.com/I6EQ05g.png
I still don't see a difference. (Mobile)
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#566Earlier quoted context omitted.
What did I write to give you that impression?
My initial interpretation was that you're saying fair use is irrelevant to the situation because machine learning models aren't themselves legal persons. But, fair use doesn't solely apply to manual creation - use of traditional algorithms (e.g: the snippets, caching, and thumbnailing done by search engines) is still covered by fair use. To my understanding, that's why ronsor pointed out that ML models are tools used…
An ML model can neither have nor be in breach of copyright so any discussion about how it works, and how that relates to how people work or “learn” is besides the point.
What actually matters is firstly details about collation of source material, and later the particular legal details surrounding attribution. The last part involves breaking new ground legally speaking and IANAL so I will reserve judgement. The first part, collation of source material for training is emphatically not unexplored legal or moral territory. People are acting like none of the established processes apply in the case of LLMs and handwave about “learning” to defend it.
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#567Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, someone can disagree on whether a fact is true. That's obviously true, but it has no effect on the truth of that fact. I'm saying something very simple: If a machine can copy your style, that's a fundamentally different situation than if a human can copy your style, and it has utterly different consequences. You can disagree with my statement, or say that whether it's fundamentally different is subjective, or yo…
> For a current example, there's already billions of man-hours worth of AI spam writing, indexed by Google, that is likely not actually read by even a single person on Earth. Continuing to ignore this point won't make the prior comments seem any more persuasive, in fact probably less. So here's another chance to engage productively instead of just declaring things to be true or false, 'objective', etc., with only the…
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#568Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who cares? With AI, you don't need art school. AI is making humanities redundant, and people are too proud to admit it. I can't believe how many people are not in awe of the possibilities of AI art, so it's great to see AI disturbing the cynics until they learn. Not everything is political, but I'll let them have this one.
> With AI, you don't need art school. AI is making humanities redundant, and people are too proud to admit it. If you think this is true, you've never understood art. Art is a human endeavour fundamentally. What ML produces is not art.
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#569Earlier quoted context omitted.
Now, I just think you are arguing in bad faith. What I meant to say was clear, but I said "technique" instead. Then, instead of debating what I meant to say (you know, the actual point of the conversation), you took my words verbatim. I'm not sure where you are going with this ... but for what it's worth, techniques can be copyrighted ... even patented, or protected via trade secrets. I never said what the techniques…
> Any time you use something with "fair use" in mind, it is the equivalent of saying, "I'm going to steal this, and hopefully, a court agrees that this is fair use." Thousands of reviews, book reports, quotations on fan sites and so on are published daily; you seem to be arguing that they are all copyright violations unless and until the original copyright holder takes those reviewers, seventh graders, and Tumblr sta…
That is precisely what I am arguing about and how it works. People have sued reviewers for including too much of the original text in the review ... and won[1]. Or simply having custom movie poster depicting too much of the original[2].
> "transformative uses" have literally been name-checked by courts. It's also been established that commercial companies can ingest mountains of copyrighted material and still fall under the fair use doctrine -- this is what the whole Google Books case about a decade ago was about. Google won.
Google had a much simpler argument than transforming the text. They were allowing people to search for the text within books (including some context). In this case, AI's product wouldn't even work without the original work by the authors, and then transforms it into something else "the author would have never thought of", without attributing the original[3]. I don't think this will be a valid defense...
> I feel like you're trying to make a moral argument against generative AI, one that I largely agree with, but a moral argument is not a legal argument.
A jury would decide these cases, as "fair use" is incredibly subjective and would depend on how the jury was stacked. Stealing other people's work is illegal, which eventually triggers a lawsuit. Then, it falls on humans (either a jury or judge) to determine fair use and how it applies to their situation. Everything from intent to motivation to morality to how pompous the defense looks will influence the final decision.[4]
[1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/471_US_539.htm
[2]: Ringgold v. Black Entertainment Television, Inc., 126 F.3d 70 (2d Cir. 1997)
[3]: Rogers v. Koons, 960 F.2d 301 (2d Cir. 1992)
[4]: Original Appalachian Artworks, Inc. v. Topps Chewing Gum, Inc., 642 F.Supp. 1031 (N.D. Ga. 1986)
Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators
#570Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really. There is a reason why we find realistic painting to be more fascinating than a photo and why some still practice it. The effort put in by another artist does affect our enjoyment.
The word "we" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. A large majority of consumers can't even tell apart AI-generated from handmade, let alone care who or what made the thing.