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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#561

Post by squarepizza »

xtracto wrote: post #455
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

I've been interviewing people for Software Eng jobs for more than 10 years an I haven't used leetcode style problems for like 8 of those years. Leetcode interviewing is lazy interviewing. It's for when you don't want to put an effort in your interviewing process to check if the candidates have the skills you need for the position you are filling. For example. My interview process nowadays is one web API interaction c…

Thank you for caring about the craft.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#562

Post by htrp »

UncleMeat wrote: post #419
faeriechangling wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel is only around today because the leadership was decisive enough to lay off most of the company early in its history, and they then proceeded to release a whack of innovative microprocessor products after these massive layoffs.

There are definitely cases where companies have true existential risk and layoffs can help get them through that. That's not Google. Instead, this means that now I need to go have a fire drill where I figure out who has been fired on all the teams I collaborate with and figure out how that fucks with my team's 2024 plans that are getting reviewed and finalized basically right now. I need to deal with the morale kille…

> I don't know anybody in Assistant, but when I read this headline I assume that the reason there are layoffs there is because Google wants more people working on new LLM hotness and is unable to naturally transition people from Assistant onto Bard or whatever so they are just firing a bunch of people in Assistant to free up budget to hire people working on LLMs. That's not a mechanism for saving the company. That is covering up for shitty management and incentive structures that can't get people working on the stuff they want without this sort of extreme action.

Which makes absolutely no sense because a ton of the DialogFlow data would make google's version of an llm much much better than whatever was offered by anybody else.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#563

Post by elteto »

devjab wrote: post #426
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

In Denmark we rarely perform tech interviews the way you Americans do. Part of this is because of how available education is, so virtually everyone who’s applying for a tech job comes with some sort of academic education, meaning that they’ve proven their worth to get it. I’ve worked a side gig as an external examiner for a decade now, I’ve got good confidence in anyone I haven’t failed. Another part is that tech int…

Cultural, personal and ideological (oof, what a word... kind of a red flag) are just proxies for "people _I_ like". Go far enough down that path and that is how you end up discriminating people for how they look/think/express themselves.

I'll honestly take Leetcode every time over this. I can grind algorithms, I can't change the fact that I'm Indian/Hispanic/Whatever.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#564

Post by hiq »

devjab wrote: post #426
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

In Denmark we rarely perform tech interviews the way you Americans do. Part of this is because of how available education is, so virtually everyone who’s applying for a tech job comes with some sort of academic education, meaning that they’ve proven their worth to get it. I’ve worked a side gig as an external examiner for a decade now, I’ve got good confidence in anyone I haven’t failed. Another part is that tech int…

That means that from the start, you rule out people who don't have this academic education. Then there's the question of the relevance of this education: either you only take CS graduates, in which case your applicant pool is quite small if you want to hire thousands of employees (but this might work if you only need to hire a few people). Or you broaden it, and you then have no guarantee that people will actually be able to write or understand code because they didn't have to to get your degree. That's without even getting into grade inflation and exam cheating.

> We do this because technical skills can also be taught, and regardless of your background, we’re going to have to “adjust” you into the way we work.

The thing is, after your technical fit, if you add a leetcode easy question, you can quickly check that the person you're interviewing can at least write a for-loop. Isn't this a useful filter?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#565

Post by hiq »

yterdy wrote: post #528
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

>What would you do instead? Encourage a competitive market environment where there aren't just a handful of polarized "make it" companies that everyone is applying to regardless of fit or career objective because landing a job there is a golden ticket?

That still doesn't mean the interview process would be any different in this different market environment you're describing.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#566

Post by varelse »

geraldwhen wrote: post #251
sz4kerto wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical. The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotio…

This is just unrealistic. When layoffs happens, whole departments can get cut. They don’t differentiate performers. Likewise, there is a huge bias in hiring against older developers. Getting laid off in your 40s is a death sentence. You’ll never make as much money again, and you’ll be lucky to find employment. Be ready to retire by 50, because anything else is both risky and improbable.

[dead]

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#567

Post by P_I_Staker »

okdood64 wrote: post #547
rednerrus wrote: post #512

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion but these huge salaries of the past 5 years have really hurt technology. Instead of the best, hungriest minds working on the best problems in the most agile way, they're languishing in one of these gigantic megacorps working at a molassess pace on some improved way to sell you ads.

This is not a hot take at all. Especially on HN.

The part about huge salaries being involved is

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#568

Post by hiq »

saiya-jin wrote: post #489
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

Have you actually every talked about code and architecture to another peer? If levels are cca same it quickly becomes an effortless exercise where ideas flow quickly and topics are immediately picked up. Lets call it brainstorming. Why can't we repeat that in interview? I don't care if some dev can code some method names or detailed algorithms from his head, when it takes 3 seconds to find exact solution. In other wo…

Are you referring to system design interviews, or are you describing something else? System design interviews are commonly used along with leetcode interviews, especially in senior roles.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#569

Post by sulam »

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

You should immediately flip the bozo bit in any leader who tells you that layoffs are done and you don't need to worry. That is a bullshit statement that no manager with any experience would ever say. It's so bad, I honestly question if that's what they actually said and I have no basis other than experience to believe that!

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#570

Post by manuelabeledo »

hiq wrote: post #384
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

> How would you assess them better than current common processes like leetcode interviews?

OP said "just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engineer", for which leetcode is useless.

Communication skills, organizational skills, hell, even general knowledge isn't covered by leetcode-like interviews.

Personally, speaking as someone who doesn't like but has to interview potential hires, I have found that there is zero overlap between people doing well in leetcode interviews, and hires doing well in their first year.

> If one could do better hiring at the same cost or less, the whole industry would be interested

I think this is a naive perspective. If there is any takeaway from the recent wave of layoffs, it would be that company wide decisions may be driven by factors that have no relation with actual financial performance. Google could have kept all these engineers and still make an absurd profit.

The notion here is that some company, at some point in time, started putting their applicants through these kind of puzzles, and it became trendy.

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