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The pro-Israel information war

jackpoulson.substack.com

561–570 of 1001 posts

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello there, a Palestinian from the west bank here speaking, let me tell you something, our resistance has nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state, if my brother stole my house and killed my children i will fight him just the same, and you would too and everyone else (I assume). jewish, muslim, christian, vegan.. doesn't matter. Now Hamas does play on the string of religion to get to people, and so does Israel…

> and when we chant "From the river to the sea" we don't mean to kill anyone Don't you think it may be useful to use a different slogan from the people who mean and do that? > if we can be free and live together, but have dignity and human rights, so be it! But we can't. There won't be a one-state solution that satisfies everyone, and the earlier we understand it, the better. For the same reasons, the right of return…

>Don't you think it may be useful to use a different slogan from the people who mean and do that?

They're not responsible for what supporters of Israel infer from this phrase.

>But we can't. There won't be a one-state solution that satisfies everyone

Those who are unsatisfied with not living within a racist ethnostate would be welcome to leave and doubtless many would.

Many South Africans packed their bags and left after apartheid.

>We need to come up with a meaningful two-state solution, but that failed multiple times. So what's left? What solution do you think both sides may agree on, assuming good faith negotiations?

The two state solution failed many times because of a lack of good faith on Israel's side. They supported the creation of Hamas as an Islamist bulwark against the PA precisely to stymie a two state solution.

The only thing that would get them to negotiate in good faith is losing American support. That is key.

>I think the situation in West Bank is much better both for Israelis and Palestinians than the situation in Gaza

They are oppressed and murdered at a far lower tempo. If youve ever seen the way Israelis in, say, Hebron treat Palestinians (i.e. like subhuman scum) you wouldnt ever say that they had it good.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello there, a Palestinian from the west bank here speaking, let me tell you something, our resistance has nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state, if my brother stole my house and killed my children i will fight him just the same, and you would too and everyone else (I assume). jewish, muslim, christian, vegan.. doesn't matter. Now Hamas does play on the string of religion to get to people, and so does Israel…

> and when we chant "From the river to the sea" we don't mean to kill anyone Don't you think it may be useful to use a different slogan from the people who mean and do that? > if we can be free and live together, but have dignity and human rights, so be it! But we can't. There won't be a one-state solution that satisfies everyone, and the earlier we understand it, the better. For the same reasons, the right of return…

In order to be able to live together we need to learn our history, and of course being Palestinian myself i am biased, but I think the Israelis in particular need to learn their history, have you watched the documentary Tantura btw? you can find it here https://archive.org/details/tantura_2022.

Israel needs to first admit that it's establishment was on the expense of another people that are still suffering until today, without that, it's difficult to move forward, as well as continuing this conversation.

> Don't you think it may be useful to use a different slogan from the people who mean and do that?

Maybe, I don't know what else can it be! the slogan is not calling for killing anyone, FREEDOM = Dignity, Human Rights, I personally just want to be able to go to the beach and travel from an airport nearby.

> But we can't. There won't be a one-state solution that satisfies everyone....

Why not?

>The right of return for every descendant won't work

Why not?

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#563

I have no skin in this game. What I have seen is a confusion (perhaps intentional) between anti-semitism, and protesting Israel’s behavior since the Hamas attack in October. Criticizing Israel’s response is not anti-Semitism- it is literally just criticizing the response.

Israel and pro-Israel commentators have spent a lot of time and effort trying to ingrain the idea that Israel == Jews. Of course, not all Jews are Israeli, and not all Israelis are Jews. And there are many Jewish Israelis who are critical of the actions of the Israeli government. Of course, a lot of criticism of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate cr…

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Re: The pro-Israel information war

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello there, a Palestinian from the west bank here speaking, let me tell you something, our resistance has nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state, if my brother stole my house and killed my children i will fight him just the same, and you would too and everyone else (I assume). jewish, muslim, christian, vegan.. doesn't matter. Now Hamas does play on the string of religion to get to people, and so does Israel…

Is it really worth fighting over a piece of land for generations? It's just dirt, there's nothing special about it. Almost all borders are the results of war and conquest throughout history, it's better to accept that and move on.

Sure, move on to where? do what? I'm curious, how much do you know about the situation here?

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> chants like "from the river to the sea" (meaning destroying Jewish country) What is the truth of that? I've seen Israeli advocates make that claim and many repeat it. I've also seen an explainer in legitimate source (maybe the NY Times?) say that it means both Palestinians and Jews should be free. Does anyone have some actual, authoritative information? Something from before October 7th might be good. > saying Isra…

For example, 2017 Hamas charter [1], page 6: The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah ... There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. ... Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without com…

>Again, people may use it trying to say something else, but slogans do not exist in a vacuum.

"From the river to the sea, palestine will be free" implies a desire to see freedom not genocide.

If you're looking for slogans that genuinely impute racist genocidal intent look no further than the Israeli Prime Minister's references to Amalek.

People who say that they support Israel may not believe this imputed genocidal intent is what they support that in a practical sense it is.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#566
post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

Pro-Ukraine viewd also outnumber pro-Russia views on twitter or facebook. Are the conclusions you draw from this fact the same? Why/why not?

With Ukraine there’s a clear victim and clear aggressor. Textbook good vs evil.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is, what is so special about the Israeli/Palestine conflict that leads to these outsized protests? I do not recollect a similar response to the treatment of ISIS or the war in Yemen, even though both had the unconditional support of the US war machine. Even if the left could be absolved of antisemitism, the resistance groups it is aligning itself with clearly can not.

One answer is these media efforts. Isreal works hard to draw attention to its conflicts, and to try to turn that attention into support. I'd note the Ukranians worked very hard to draw attention to their war as well, and they were quite successful at that.

No. Israel would like nothing more than to not be the center of attention every time it's attacked and tries to defend itself.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#568
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, there is nowhere else in the world where so many civilians are being killed. Nothing else even comes close. 20k deaths in just two months is a massive death toll for such a short conflict. For comparison, it's more than the civilian death toll in the nearly 2-year-old war in Ukraine. The other thing is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on for decades, and many people have formed strong o…

That's just untrue. Sudan, Yemen and (earlier) Ethiopia had much much more, without even going into Ukraine (nobody should accept the Russian figures) or Syria (death toll exceeding all Israeli-Arab wars combined). Doing a death toll per month analysis is misleading because high intensity can't last very long due to geography alone.

[deleted]

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#569
post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas. I think it is cur…

I don't support how civilians are being treated in Palestine whatsoever, but: >while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Or when has any modern Israeli party? I also don't believe Likud is considered far-right in Israel; just "right". There are parties far to the right of them. Not that that's necessarily a good th…

Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians:

- Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1]

- IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2]

- Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." [3]

- Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir: “As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the air force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid” [4]

- IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in" and "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal." [5]

- Israeli President Isaac Herzog: "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true." and "Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children." [6]

- IDF Reservist Ezra Yachin: "Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live." and "Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him." [7]

- IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: "The international community is warning us against a severe humanitarian disaster and severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of Gaza will bring victory closer" and "there’s no reason why the Hamas generals in southern Gaza wouldn’t surrender when they have no fuel, no water, and when plagues will reach them and the danger to the lives of their family members will increase" [8]

- Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "Hezbollah is close to making a grave mistake. The ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we do in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut" [9]

- Israeli Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet Avi Dichter: "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba" [10]

- Likud Knesset member Galit Distel-Atbaryan: "Invest this energy in one thing; Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth." and "A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here. Anything less is immoral." [11]

- Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz: "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home" [12]

- IDF Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, in response to Wolf Blitzer asking if the IDF knew there were civilians in Jabalya refugee camp before they bombed it: "This is the tragedy of war, Wolf — as you know, we've been saying for days, move south." [13]

[1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netany...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-i...

[3] https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789

[4] https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534

[5] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-sta...

[6] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65...

[7] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-vete...

[8] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506

[9] https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738

[10] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453

[11] https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656

[12] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister...

[13] https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748...

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#570
post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

For whatever algorithmic reasons tiktok is giving me 5 to 1 (at least) pro-israeli views at the moment.
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