Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If I were the CEO of OpenAI, I'd be pretty pissed if a member of my own board was shitting on the organization she was a member of while puffing up a competitor. Considering what's in the charter, it seems like she didn't do anything wrong? > We will attempt to directly build safe and beneficial AGI, but will also consider our mission fulfilled if our work aids others to achieve this outcome. >We commit to use any…
> Considering what's in the charter, it seems like she didn't do anything wrong? It’s incredibly disingenuous to slap your name on an ethics paper claiming a company is doing malfeasance such as triggering a race-to-the-bottom for AI ethics when you have an active hand in steering the company. It’s shameful. Either she should have resigned from the company, for ethical reasons, or recused herself from the paper, for…
Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
561–570 of 625 posts
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#562Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is insane. "They had to fire Sam, because he was trying to take over the board". First: most boards are accountable to something other than themselves. For the exact reason that it pre-empts that type of nonsense. Second: the anti-Sam Altman argument seems to be "let's shut the company down, because that will stop AGI from being invented". Which is blatant nonsense; nothing they do will stop anyone else. (with t…
> "They had to fire Sam, because he was trying to take over the board". I mean, yes? The board is explicitly there to replace the CEO if necessary. If the CEO stuffs the board full of their allies, it can no longer do that. > First: most boards are accountable to something other than themselves. For the exact reason that it pre-empts that type of nonsense. Boards of for-profits are accountable to shareholders because…
The IRS’s actual power in this regard is extremely limited. There’s so much wiggle room to define the “mission” that, at best, the only thing they can do is make sure you’re not secretly using your nonprofit as a tax shelter for a regular for-profit business, and even then some companies find ways around it (see IKEA).
Ordinary fraud (as opposed to tax fraud, though maybe that too) is even easier to pull off with a nonprofit than with an for-profit. Any nonprofit has a fundraising mechanism (which is usually an obnoxious set of dark patterns and outright spam reached through decades of optimization; the techniques are well understood), some overhead for managing the organization and money itself, and then the actual work involved with the mission. It’s quite simple for the overhead and fundraising parts of the organization to become most of the organization. But it gets worse: when your “mission” is vague enough, you can also turn that side of the business into a bunch of sinecures for your friends. There are well known “awareness” nonprofits that do literally nothing to actually solve the problems they’re nominally about because their job is to “spread awareness” (i.e. the top of the funnel for the fundraising part of the organization).
This is ironically also the origin story of “effective altruism”. The IRS doesn’t stop you from running a non-profit scam, so you have to do your own research to find out which non-profits are legit, and that’s what the effective altruists started off with, along with some cost-benefit modeling once you get past the outright scams.
The problem with OpenAI seems to be related to a vague mission as well. From the “an organization is what it does” perspective, OpenAI develops AI. If you have a formal mission that emphasizes safety over capability, you could certainly argue that OpenAI was closer to achieving that mission by sabotaging its own work, but if your interpretation of “safety” is to sabotage the development of AI, there are certainly better ways to do it than to develop AI and then sabotage yourself.
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#563Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Considering what's in the charter, it seems like she didn't do anything wrong? It’s incredibly disingenuous to slap your name on an ethics paper claiming a company is doing malfeasance such as triggering a race-to-the-bottom for AI ethics when you have an active hand in steering the company. It’s shameful. Either she should have resigned from the company, for ethical reasons, or recused herself from the paper, for…
Well since that's not what the paper claims at all...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38374972
It has an excess amount of weasel words, so you might need to employ ChatGPT to read between the lines.
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#564>Ms. Toner disagreed. The board’s mission is to ensure that the company creates artificial intelligence that “benefits all of humanity,” and if the company was destroyed, she said, that mission would be fulfilled. Doesn’t this sound like Toner herself is playing god? That is, only she is the gatekeeper of humanity and only she knows what is good for the entire humanity, when many of us believe that OpenAI’s tech is p…
> Doesn’t this sound like Toner herself is playing god? That is, only she is the gatekeeper of humanity and only she knows what is good for the entire humanity Not sure why you’re singling her out - all execs of massive tech companies think exactly the same. A handful of execs have decided that AI is what humanity needs and they’ve spent the last year shoehorning it into every product possible, giving the consumer no…
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#565The only specific accusation made in the article is that Sam criticized Helen Toner for writing a paper: https://cset.georgetown.edu/publication/decoding-intentions/ That says Anthropic has a better approach to AI safety than OpenAI. Sam apparently said she should have come to him directly if she had concerns about the company's approach and pointed out that as a board member her words have weight at a time when he w…
> I'm much more interested in how Helen managed to get on this board at all. My gut says that she is the central figure in how this all went down. She and D'Angelo are the central figures, if my gut is right. It looks like Helen Toner was OK with destroying the company to make a point. FTA: > Ms. Toner disagreed. The board’s mission is to ensure that the company creates artificial intelligence that “benefits all of h…
It looks like Helen Toner is out of the board.
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#566Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aside from those individuals being in-demand professionals with specialized experience from a big famous company, 770 people will be the least of our concerns if the social disruption from this stuff gets bad enough one day. Not surprised Hacker News identifies and sympathizes more with the software folks than with everyone else who has to live with the systems they build/disrupt, though.
> 770 people will be the least of our concerns if the social disruption from this stuff gets bad enough one day. Yeah, this is the common trend among these insane utilitarians like you and Helen Toner. It's all a game of "how can I justify doing heinous shit to people". IF a superintelligent AGI is created that is as disruptive as you imagine, it also means we find cures for diseases and solve many other potentially…
Where did I say anything about a "superintelligence"?
The extant statistical inference engines aren't going to build killer androids. No, I'm terrified of what profit-motivated humans are going to do to each other using machines designed to match patterns and generate convincing bullshit.
Think less "Terminator", more like Cambridge Analytica, Russian-style firehose-of-falsehood, 2018 YouTube algorithmic radicalization, 2014 Facebook "emotional contagion" experiment, 2023 TikTok censorship, doctored videos/evidence, crossing an inflection point in declining trust in democratic institutions, fully automated fraud and identity theft in an arms race with increasingly invasive countermeasures, scientific atrophy, artistic and cultural homogenization, etc.
FFS, the SGA and WGA just wrapped up an unprecedented strike motivated in large part by the broadly anticipated destructive impact of ML on their industry. You wanna talk about jobs? Wikipedia says that cost 45,000, many of whom were barely getting by, while you whinge about 770 in-demand professionals who already have highly paying offers from at least two Fortune 500 companies. From what I've seen, the voice acting industry, although less able to advocate for itself, is in disarray too and already directly impacted by the spread of models trained unconsensually on actors' past work. Plus major publications like CNET have already been caught canning their staff and dishonestly publishing error-ridden drivel with a misguided faith in LLMs, Google and thus access to most textual information online is basically useless because of SEO blogspam already, etc.
Framing climate change as "we didn't move fast enough on AGI" is… Bizarre. Windmills ain't new tech, and neither are hydro dams, nuclear reactors, nor LRT. Framing disease as an "AGI" problem is… Delusional, as well. Some academics may certainly find domain-specific ML models useful, but were I a bit more vindictive, I'd pay good money to see you try to get ChatGPT to fold a novel protein correctly.
> It's all a game of "how can I justify doing heinous shit to people".
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#567> Mr. Sutskever’s frustration with Mr. Altman echoed what had happened in 2021 when another senior A.I. scientist left OpenAI to form the company Anthropic. That scientist and other researchers went to the board to try to push Mr. Altman out. So Altman faced another similar challenge to his authority and prevailed. I recall hearing that Anthropic started because the people who had left were unhappy with OpenAIs track…
Or maybe(x) he is surrounded by doomers and AI activists who made a career of blabbering about the dangers of AI all the time.
I worked once on a team of Uncle Bob's cult followers who believed that Clean Architecture is the only way to write maintainable software and was accused that "I don't care, I'm irresponsible, and a terrible software engineer" weekly.
(x) and I meant the "maybe" part, I really don't know, but it is a possibility.
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#568> Mr. Altman complained that the research paper seemed to criticize OpenAI’s efforts to keep its A.I. technologies safe while praising the approach taken by Anthropic, according to an email that Mr. Altman wrote to colleagues and that was viewed by The New York Times. > OpenAI's board of directors approached rival Anthropic's CEO about replacing chief Sam Altman and potentially merging the two AI startups, according…
And the whole time no one thought to phone Satya Nadella regarding his $10 billion investment and to get his input.
In fact the most positive outcome is if Altman and the rest of the staff went to MS and did their thing and OpenAI started from scratch with the $13B they've come into. That would double the chances of something useful emerging from the OpenAI work so far.
I personally think Altman is very much less than a genius (maybe at extracting financial advantage) so all OpenAI's eggs shouldn't be placed in that particular basket.
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#569>Ms. Toner disagreed. The board’s mission is to ensure that the company creates artificial intelligence that “benefits all of humanity,” and if the company was destroyed, she said, that mission would be fulfilled. Doesn’t this sound like Toner herself is playing god? That is, only she is the gatekeeper of humanity and only she knows what is good for the entire humanity, when many of us believe that OpenAI’s tech is p…
Re: Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and feuding
#570Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's interesting the paper is selling Anthropic's approach to 'safety' as the correct approach when they just launched a new version of Claude and HN thread is littered with people saying its unusable because half the prompts they type get flagged as ethical violations. It's pretty clear some legitimate concerns about a hypothetical future AGI, that we've barely scraped the surface of, turns into "what can we do toda…
What’s surprising to me is that top-level executives think that self-destructing the current leader in LLMs is the way to ensure safety. Aren’t you simply making space for smaller, more aggressive, and less safety-minded competitors to grab a seat on the money train to do whatever they want to do? Pandora’s box is already open. You have to guard it. You have to use your power and influence to enforce other competitor…
> Self-destructing is the worst way to ensure AI safety.
If they don't believe you're prepared to destroy the company if that's what it takes, then you have zero power or influence. If they try to "call your bluff", you have to go there, otherwise they'll never respect you again.