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80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

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Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#561

Post by foobarian »

Alupis wrote: post #146
atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

There's a lot of nuance that isn't discussed in the WFH circles. I don't believe the cynical claims some offer of VC's losing out on real estate deals, or mid-level managers needing to boost their butts-in-seats numbers or whatever. For some, perhaps, but on average? What percentage of long-distance relationships work out long-term? Do you become more or less close with friends after they move out of town? Do you sti…

> online whiteboards and planning tools vs. a real physical whiteboard with everyone holding their own pen and bouncing ideas around in real-time

I was wondering if there is an online whiteboard where every participant can work concurrently. I think excalidraw has a shared feature but I haven't tried it with > 2 people.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#562

Post by xemdetia »

derefr wrote: post #454
ascotan wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a millennial thing. they grew up working on laptops and their dream office is to make the workplace look like starbucks. Open seating, no cubicles, a barista. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the old office place standard of 'cubes'. Managers hire out to consultants that hype this type of office layout because it will supposedly attract a talent. To be fair, cubes weren't any better. I remember having a guy slerping…

> To be fair, cubes weren't any better. Cubes, with hot-desking , is pretty great actually. IBM has it in their drop-in “business centers” for WFH employees.

I unironically miss my cube. They were natural sound breaks and sound absorbing so you could talk and not intrude horrifically on people adjacent. I had a place for my things so I didn't have to shuttle them in and out every day. I had a phone that worked, an Ethernet jack that was not temperamental, and a whiteboard that was ready to go. I also had a few different ways I could sit at my cube so I wouldn't get the same pains I get sitting in an open office plan because there is no way to customize anything for comfort in many cases. I have seriously considered packing a drill and a set of bits to tear off idiot things like keyboard trays (when nobody has an external keyboard) but I am resisting only just.

In a moment of clarity the real thing about open office plans is that most times when you show up it has the vibe of a floor being fired and everyone's desk wiped clean. There are no remnants of those who are there, no photos of family or the odd dollar store fun thing that kicks around a desk, every desk is wiped clean more austere than a hospital room.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#563

Post by tekknik »

wtarreau wrote: post #398
mfitton wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right about this, but there are companies that are putting distributed teams back into open offices just so that... they can sit in zoom meetings with their team. But now, they're less likely to have ad-hoc collaborations over Zoom because it's a pain in the neck to find a conference room and feels borderline disrespectful to one's neighbors to carry on a long call when they're trying to focus. It's al…

It's not necessarily the case, it happens that most of the people who come are happy to be in the same room for a meeting, but often they still have to endure one single distant coworker that preferred to stay home and selfishly forces all other ones to use the shitty tools. At work we've bought small PCs for the meeting rooms so that all those present can be in the same room, and have the rare distant ones participa…

> but often they still have to endure one single distant coworker that preferred to stay home and selfishly forces all other ones to use the shitty tools.

How does this hateful comment reconcile with geographically distributed teams?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#564

Post by tekknik »

Pannoniae wrote: post #446
wtarreau wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that we can see them everywhere but you'll probably notice that you don't know what jobs such people do and that those who you know and who need to benefit from others' experience typically do not do this. I tend to think there is a class (and a large one) of people who live only for their phone and social networks just because they have no life and they're trying to get one in such superficial stuff. Or ma…

"It often makes me sad to see how they can be absorbed by these non-sense activities instead of simply being proud of what they are." ....because "being proud of what you are" doesn't work when no one cares about what you do or who you are. Then, your options are two-fold: you either become an isolated loner who doesn't care about socialising, or you participate in those superficial activities in hope of human connec…

Third option, you focus on family. Not sure why this was left out.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#565

Post by tekknik »

7952 wrote: post #559
ekianjo wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence that defeats the social animal myth if our minds can be captured by something inherently non human

No it doesn't, false dichotomy. Addiction can coexist with socialising, see pubs for evidence of that. Also, the instincts that drive us to be sociable may also make aspects of social networks enticing. In the same way that desire for sex drives porn use. We can not always tell the difference between artificial experience and real.

How does this reconcile with learning and the internet? Or books? The assumption that someone is using the addictive apps or services is the flaw in your argument.

Same with bars, people can go to a bar not for the purpose of socializing at all. They may simply want to get away from home and be left alone while drinking some beers at the bar. Maybe the in-laws are in town. I do this myself.

Some people don’t need socialization and yet aren’t “loners”, their focus is just elsewhere. Trying to state all humans are social creatures is what a few posts up is about. Not everybody is the same, haven’t we learned that already?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#566

Post by tekknik »

skydhash wrote: post #156
Alupis wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of nuance that isn't discussed in the WFH circles. I don't believe the cynical claims some offer of VC's losing out on real estate deals, or mid-level managers needing to boost their butts-in-seats numbers or whatever. For some, perhaps, but on average? What percentage of long-distance relationships work out long-term? Do you become more or less close with friends after they move out of town? Do you sti…

We are social animals and having in person interactions would probably boost the team’s cohesion. But it’s not a requirement and we’d have plenty examples of projects built over virtual meeting and async communications.

As someone else said in another post, unless you like touching your coworkers during meetings then a camera works just fine.

And to jump onto one of your points, Linux is the big elephant in the room. Almost every company uses it yet there’s no office building for Linux HQ where the devs all go and sit to build it.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#567

Post by willcipriano »

deaddodo wrote: post #258
ornornor wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions Sometimes I just want silence. Not music, not $color noise. I also get itchy ears after wearing headphones for hours on end, and noise canceling headphones give me a headache… or, you know, I could work wherever I prefer, with little to no commute, and an office arranged how I like it.

Yup, this too. Half the time I had headphones on, I didn't even have them playing anything. I just had ANC turned on to muffle the background noise (and deter people who didn't actually needy assistance with anything). But I definitely had ear stink/itch at the end of most days.

Started getting chronic ear infections after using headphones for long hours.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#568

Post by badpun »

deaddodo wrote: post #258
ornornor wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions Sometimes I just want silence. Not music, not $color noise. I also get itchy ears after wearing headphones for hours on end, and noise canceling headphones give me a headache… or, you know, I could work wherever I prefer, with little to no commute, and an office arranged how I like it.

Yup, this too. Half the time I had headphones on, I didn't even have them playing anything. I just had ANC turned on to muffle the background noise (and deter people who didn't actually needy assistance with anything). But I definitely had ear stink/itch at the end of most days.

In my anecdotal experience, it’s important to take of headphones every now and then to prevent moisture from accumulating in the ear canal. That moisture is unnatural and id probably very nice for various germs.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#569

Post by bshacklett »

notnmeyer wrote: post #468
floucky wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think full remote is kind of selfish? I mean, I also love it, but what about new hires and junior? How are they going to learn and improve if each time they have a question, they need to post it on slack and just wait...

fully remote requires rethinking collaboration and working together to some extent. if slack is the only way remote companies communicate, they’re doing it wrong imo.

What other mechanisms would you include?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#570

Post by bshacklett »

floucky wrote: post #320
throwaway892238 wrote: post #60

I decided I will never again work in an office, for the rest of my life. It's a lifestyle choice. I refuse to put up with the B.S. anymore. I'm lucky that I've had a long career and my skills are very much in demand, so I will always be able to find a remote job somewhere. People doing jobs with more qualified candidates in the pool will probably have a harder time, and that sucks. For them, I hope they can band toge…

Don't you think full remote is kind of selfish? I mean, I also love it, but what about new hires and junior? How are they going to learn and improve if each time they have a question, they need to post it on slack and just wait...

A cultural shift needs to happen if people aren’t getting responses via Slack. If someone is reaching out for help, people need to respond in a timely manner, and it’s up to leadership to make sure that happens, ideally by being a good example.

I have many team members who work extremely well in this kind of environment, but there will always be some who don’t. It’s both a choice and a skill to function as a part of the team, and leadership needs to cultivate that culture. I don’t see this being any different in person, though it may not be quite as visible to the folks making the return to office decisions.

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