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Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#561

Post by oceanplexian »

K0balt wrote: post #371
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tent cities don't exist solely in places without access to housing "Access to housing" isn't enough. You might have "access" to health care but unable to afford it. You need housing as a right - even without payment - alongside enough adequate housing for everyone. And allow folks to do things in their own home. If they cannot do it at their home with other people, the person in question does not have adequate housin…

Life is misery by default, as a natural consequence of life itself. The never ending tyranny of the need to eat and avoid being eaten is the normal state of affairs. Honestly, if a person isn’t up for it, we need to stop trying to convince them to stay around and be miserable. Elective suicide should be a basic right, and drugs are one way out. We only create misery by “helping” people that don’t want hep. Criminaliz…

I’m gonna guess that most people on this board lead productive lives and can handle drugs and alcohol, so it’s going to cause some bias and self-selection. But there are folks out there that who have never had a drink in their lives, have one, and then immediately spiral out of control and become violent.

I’ve seen it first hand. Really nice guys, had no issues or violent tendencies, then got a hold of alcohol or drugs and it completely changed them. In the worst cases it went to the ultimate extreme and they wound up killing others.

Once you realize this, your perspective on the laissez-faire attitude changes. The reality is that some people are fundamentally incompatible with drugs and alcohol and society needs to put up boundaries to prevent collateral damage, even if we were OK with them killing themselves. I think some drugs are worse than others (For example I’ve never seen someone get violent after smoking Cannabis) but messing with your brain chemistry is not a trivial thing like the pro-legalize-everything camp wants to proclaim.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#562

Post by robocat »

JTon wrote: post #556
robocat wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling alcohol social feels like an evil marketing gimmick - certainly our advertising pretends it is social. Alcohol is deeply socially destructive - we know the stereotypical examples of damage in the the poor and the indigenous communities. The examples of damage in middle-class homes of the wealthy (e.g. doctors) and the average working class (tradies and nurses) is much less visible. The words “social” and “alc…

We're very far apart on this issue. I feel like you must not drink socially, so you're not exposed to the milder effects of alcohol. Alcohol enables both social and anti-social behavior. It doesn't have to be black and white.

I drink at pubs and with friends.

I have an alcohol free home (I have seen too many friends slowly change from one small drink a night to a problem within a few years.

I have seen too many devastating consequences of “social” drinking to think it is safe. Of course we all mostly do unsafe things regularly!

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#563

Post by 99_00 »

Aerroon wrote: post #259
99_00 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is full of things that can't be eliminated, but we benefit greatly from reducing their occurrence.

How do we benefit? My country has a drug policy too. One part of it is that asthma inhalers require a prescription. Is the world a better place because I can't legally buy an asthma inhaler without spending a lot of money on doctors visits? I would've appreciated having one on quite a few occasions, but not enough to pay for all the doctors visits.

You see the benefit of unrestricted access to medicines but you completely ignore the harms. That's one sided thinking.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#564

Post by defrost »

99_00 wrote: post #563
Aerroon wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we benefit? My country has a drug policy too. One part of it is that asthma inhalers require a prescription. Is the world a better place because I can't legally buy an asthma inhaler without spending a lot of money on doctors visits? I would've appreciated having one on quite a few occasions, but not enough to pay for all the doctors visits.

You see the benefit of unrestricted access to medicines but you completely ignore the harms. That's one sided thinking.

The key complaint above as I read it is the cost of both the drug and the doctor's visit.

It's entirely possible to have chaep prescription asthma medication regulated by low cost national health care subsidised doctors appointments.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#565

Post by lastdong »

Having a successful program doesn’t mean you can slow down, you can never slow down agaisn’t hard drugs as it is a global epidemic.

Quote from article: “João Goulão — head of Portugal’s national institute on drug use and the architect of decriminalization — admitted to the local press in December that “what we have today no longer serves as an example to anyone.” Rather than fault the policy, however, he blames a lack of funding.”

“After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by the state to nonprofit groups, including the street teams that engage with people who use drugs.”

More recomforting is to read Portugal is re-investing in the original effort meausures:

“The country is now moving to create a new institute aimed at reinvigorating its drug prevention programs.”

Let’s hope things improve.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#566

Post by palata »

oneshtein wrote: post #474
palata wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously have absolutely no idea what communists think, and what "communism" means. What you are demonstrating is that it is impossible to talk with you. Not sure if that is because you can't understand a basic sentence or just because you aren't open to even learn what a word means before making completely wrong conclusions, but I don't care. We won't have a constructive discussion, let's stop here.

Communists think that it possible to build communism by killing of «bad» (rich) people, until good people, liberated from burden of capitalism, will build communism. In their imagination, it's OK to kill 30% of population to build heaven for them.

Sounds like what I imagine when looking of a cliché about what people learn in the US. Are you from the US? And is it really what you're being taught there? Genuinely interested.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#569

Post by K0balt »

momirlan wrote: post #393
K0balt wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is misery by default, as a natural consequence of life itself. The never ending tyranny of the need to eat and avoid being eaten is the normal state of affairs. Honestly, if a person isn’t up for it, we need to stop trying to convince them to stay around and be miserable. Elective suicide should be a basic right, and drugs are one way out. We only create misery by “helping” people that don’t want hep. Criminaliz…

that is the premise of a good distopian movie. or a book, if you prefer.

Letting people do what they want does unfortunately lead to some pretty dystopian optics.

Still a better love story than twilight.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#570

Post by K0balt »

nickserv wrote: post #510
gruez wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Suffice to say: I have. Several people who were on self-destructive paths, of whom you could have said "well fuck him, the fucker doesn't want help and is a burden to those around him, why should I waste money and effort with him?". With the necessary support they are now entirely different persons. I didn't get the impression that the parent was against help. He explicitly mentioned providing rehab programs to thos…

Putting a bunch of addicts in an abandoned building so they can live in misery doesn't seem very helpful.

Addicts actively reject housing with rules and seek out abandoned buildings. The idea is to provide them with safe refuge where they do not have to be compliant except to be nonviolent, while keeping them in immediate proximity to a rehab on-ramp that would move them out of that situation into inpatient rehab.

They already move out of housing to seek out abandoned buildings because their choices are incompatible with society at large.

My idea is an attempt to align incentives for a better outcome.

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