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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#561

Post by cmcaleer »

adam_arthur wrote: post #259
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

Was actually super surprised by that line. Was with the post until then. Yes, treat people with respect, but we also need people to have even a marginal resilience to adversity. The bar for being emotionally damaged seems to be getting lower and lower for people. If you can’t take criticism, don’t work in open source. You will never have 100% support from all people at all times. Many developers will manage social in…

This whole saga has been legitimate grievances clouded by lengthy blog posts that could have been so much shorter and less dramatically written. The other blog about this controversy clocked in at over 2000 words!

Re: Why I Left Rust

#562

Post by ianzakalwe »

Organization that is “uncomfortable” with being criticized is always going to struggle to expand and adjust.

I have being part of rust community since 2013, I have seen lots of oddities over the years in this community. While it is inspiring to see such a dedicated and passionate community it is also upsetting to see same community kill off its own members based on disagreements and inability to carry any sort of constructive discourse.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#563

Post by [deleted] »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #433
rgbgraph wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Left Rust

#564

Post by slily »

drew-y wrote: post #544
Roark66 wrote: post #294

I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…

I see where you're coming from and it's clear you have strong feelings on this matter. However, I believe there might be a misunderstanding here. The goal of diversity initiatives isn't about devaluing any particular group, it's about ensuring that the opportunities and benefits are more equitably distributed across different communities. When someone mentions a 'lack of Black representation', they're not saying that…

When were these supposed "systemic issues" ever identified? In my experience "systemic racism" is a vague pretext to implement racist policies that push out white people (and sometimes Asians) in favor of black people (and people considered "brown enough"). I see this at my job and at conferences: people are explicitly promoted or selected as speakers in part because they are not white (or not male). This isn't just something I observed, they say it openly when the "diversity", equity, and "inclusion" strategy is discussed. I've also seen conference attendees openly say that there should be fewer white males at a certain event.

In none of those cases was a specific policy or practice identified that would explain the existence of "systemic issues" preventing minorities from getting hired, promoted, selected, and that would justify implementing discriminatory policies (aka "affirmative action"). So ironically we're discriminating against the "majority" (white males) over something that's mostly imaginary, at least in the US tech industry, based on nothing but demographic statistics. The fact that there's fewer qualified people of a certain color (proportionally to overall demographics) in the pool isn't evidence of systemic racism at the level we're operating. Meanwhile you would get laughed at for suggesting that we need gender parity in waste management jobs, or early childhood education.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#565

Post by RobotToaster »

KerrAvon wrote: post #464
lyu07282 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…

“SJW/woke” as an epithet is a right wing trope. Can we not do this please?

Not really, you see the same term used in left wing circles to refer to liberals/synthetic left types.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#567

Post by coldtea »

junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

>Rust members were "uncomfortable" with this purely technical viewpoint - not their behavior, personal beliefs, or even their demographic?

As if their personal beliefs or demographic would be more acceptable things to have concerns over, in a technical conference setting?

This shit has just become too normalized and acceptable in contexts where it shouldn't be. You're not marrying them or making them friends.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#568

Post by Y_Y »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #537
calibas wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. I'm not sure what SJW or "woke" means in this context. They cancelled a black man because they felt "discomfort" over him being the keynote speaker.

But the fact that he was black is a non-factor here, and shouldn't even be mentioned.

TFA seems to think it was important. The Rust conference needs to have a black friend to prove it isn't racist.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#569

Post by pdimitar »

b112 wrote: post #557
pdimitar wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are generalizing. This is a very isolated incident, and one that I as a Rust dev am baffled about. It seems poorly handled by all sides involved. Have in mind that 99.99% of Rust devs out there chose it on technical merits and couldn't care less about their internal infighting even if we were paid to care.

You are generalizing No, my statements about zealots in the rust community, are not generalizations. Rust has more zealots, than every other language combined. Note, advocates are not the same as zealots.

I'm skeptical. This incident in particular doesn't prove that Rust has more zealots.

Every single Rust dev I've worked with is a normal programmer who prioritizes merit and rational process.

If you're already unfriendly towards the Rust community then this incident will only deepen your bias. I urge you to not assess the community with this flawed thought process. Rust devs are like all others.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#570

Post by coldtea »

indy wrote: post #88
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

>Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable"

If anything, people should be pushed to accepting feeling uncomfortable. It means they're meeting challenging ideas, opposing viewpoints, and getting out of their comfort zone and echo bubble.

Except if "not feeling comfortamble" is because someone e.g. exposes their junk, or farts endlessly on purpose during a conference. That, sure, should be curbed.

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