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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#561
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I enter a shopping mall in my country I expect it to be American the same way I expect a McDonald’s to be American. I mean, the very concept is foreign.

Fun fact, the word "mall" comes from the Italian "pallamaglio" [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-history-of...

Thanks for this. I always wondered why the road leading west from Trafalgar Sq was called Pall Mall.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#562
post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have to penalize usage of English words, you are doing something really wrong. Just in official documents, though. You can still say "OK" in the street.

This only serves to form unnecessary barriers. If tomorrow, everyone spoke the same language (ignore which one it was), society would be better off. History and historical culture, on their own, are a bad reason to do something (ie learning from history makes sense. Doing something for no other reason than the length of time its been does not) The rest is just about which language and who chooses. The only thing this…

> If tomorrow, everyone spoke the same language (ignore which one it was), society would be better off.

It wouldn't last. Within years it would devolve into various creoles and with centuries; almost entirely different languages. Language is not merely functional but cultural and has purpose outside of meaning (e.g. identity).

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#563
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you may also war because you trade though. Opium war is a good example of that where the war is inspired by difficulties trading.

Was that really the reason? What difficulty? They created this difficulty to find a chance to invade. There was a clear plan to create an addiction and even as it was banned to smuggle more and more into the country. A lot of things don't happen by chance. So does a certain country not actually have "weapons of mass destruction" etc.

The war came about through a trading inefficiency. The Chinese markets at the time (still holds relatively true today) was a selling market, not a buying market. They weren't interested in European goods. So European trading vessels would have to stock up on silver as currency, and sail to China to trade the silver for desirable goods such as porcelain and silks.

European merchants didn't like this because its far more efficient to profit on every leg and the first leg of hauling silver was a loss with a mostly empty hold, so were seeking a product to sell to the Chinese market that would have pull that they could fill cargo holds with. Due to their lack of scruples, they discovered that opium was such a product and set in motion the very events that still plague us to today of growing opium across Asia to sell to China.

As a flood of cheap opium entered the market through the criminal gangs at the time (who were buying the opium through profitable liaisons with the British) the Chinese authorities set about cracking down on the trade in the interests of its people. Eventually this brought them into conflict with the British and in interests of keeping the ports open to the opium trade the first of two opium wars was declared.

The wikipedia article probably puts it better than I have [1].

> They created this difficulty to find a chance to invade.

If they were seeking to invade then European possessions in China would have been significantly greater than Hong Kong given the weakness of the Qing dynasty over the course of the 19th century (although it would have still been a significant challenge given the might of China's manpower at the time). The British were a brutal force but in a similar fashion to today's US hegemony they were not always primarily motivated by conquest and annexation, wealth was more of a primary motivator. So its much like US foreign policy today which is typically flexed to promote interests relevant to American GDP. It remains ugly when its flexed but its arguably a kinder aim than that of a fully imperialistic force such as say: the Mongols of the 14th and 15th centuries.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#564
At the risk of getting downvotes...

Goodness, have mercy. I do not understand the point of clinging to a language as if it were an essential part of life. Although Sanskrit is considered a god-given language by Hindus, it is barely used today. Similarly, many other languages are in decline. If even a god-given language cannot prevent its own disappearance, why waste time on such nonsense?

If a language, in whatever form it may take, can communicate your thoughts and ideas to the listener, that should be sufficient.

It is often said that history is taught in schools to help people avoid repeating past mistakes. However, while people may learn to avoid certain mistakes, they often do not learn about the natural decay of things.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think the example of Switzerland shows that there is no problem if spoken language is different from official language. Most Swiss speak at least two of their four official languages. It's actually an example of how having multiple official languages isn't expensive nor hard to achieve (and the country is on top of most human index charts). But the EU should make Latin it's official language.

Most Swiss people don't speak two of their official language

What I found was that they often did but wouldn't claim to speak it. As in couldn't discuss literature or hold a job in language X but fluent enough that they had no issues reading directions or interacting with locals.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what vantage point are you speaking? I’ve been online for 17 years and so I’ve been very aware of the trend of “wokeism” and other things like that. I also live in the country known as Europe. Yet in “real life” I have never, ever encountered a woke, virtue-signalling stereotype. The closest I came was some other guy’s experience that he relayed to me. And that goes for other American (or not) things that also a…

You forgot gun violance. The statistics for that are insane compared to any other country

No.

> > Etc.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grammar is really not that much of an impediment to picking up a 2nd language for business and trade purposes. Unlike in school, no one really cares that much about grammar if you can understand what the other is saying. And English grammar is really not that simple - for example, few other languages have the distinction between continuous and perfect forms of a tense, but foreign speakers can simply avoid it in Engl…

> few other languages have the distinction between continuous and perfect forms of a tense, but foreign speakers can simply avoid it in English ("I read the docs" instead of "I am reading the docs" for a really basic speaker) I can't really tell what you mean. "I am reading the docs" is an example of a form that is generally called "continuous", yes. "Continuous" is an aspect, not a tense. The same is true of "perfec…

> "I read the docs" uses what is generally called the "plain form" (the name describes the form, not the meaning that calls for the form), and it expresses that the verb is stative[1], describing a fact about the subject ("I am the kind of person who reads the docs") rather than describing an event that takes place at a particular time.

"Perfect" was the wrong word for what I meant, you're right. I was referring to the difference between the continuous form and the plain form, which doesn't exist in many other languages. For example, in French, "je lis les docs" can mean either "I am reading the docs" or "I read the docs (in general)". My point is, even though a native English speaker (or anyone past B1 or so) understands the difference between these two phrases, many foreign speakers actually don't, and would use them more or less interchangeably, relying on context.

Lots of grammar is like this: it helps reduce the amount of context necessary, but it's not critical to text comprehension. If you speak French while using the wrong genders for nouns, people will still understand exactly what you mean - it will just sound strange and maybe make certain complex phrases more confusing than they're used to. This happens very commonly when a language is picked up as a lingua franca by many foreign speakers.

> This is very commonly asserted, but I don't believe it's true. Here you can see a popular American sitcom making a series of jokes about tone, even though the same people who will tell you that Chinese is difficult because of its tones will also tell you that English doesn't have them

Tone exists in all human communication, but it is used very differently in tonal languages. In almost all non-tonal languages, a rising tone indicates a question, a flat tone indicates a statement, and certain other tones indicate the mood of the speaker.

But in a tonal language, particularly one with absolute tones like Mandarin Chinese, tones are more similar to vowels, consonants, or stress accent: they are an intrinsic part of words or syllables. The difference between "mā" (high tone) and "má" (rising tone) is not one of intention, they are simply two completely unrelated syllables/words (the first means "mother", the second means "numb"). There are three more words that use what would be the same syllable in a non-tonal language (transliterated as mà, falling tone, mǎ, falling then rising tone, and ma, neutral tone).

Even worse, moving from a neutral tone syllable to a high tone syllable may sound like, which to a Mandarin Chinese speaker would be equivalent to moving between a syalble using "a" to one using "e" would be interpreted as a rising tone (and thus a question) by a non-tonal language speaker.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#568
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your far-right political movements A nit - it seems the US far-right is adopting tactics from European far-right history and not the other way around. Trump literally used the words "blood and soil" at some point and Fox is mastering the art of propaganda.

If the granularity of your analysis is the century, you may have a point. Otherwise, Europe has experienced a significant decrease of far-right activity and popularity between WW2 and the 2000's, approximately.

Why constrain to a weird length of 75-80 years? Despots can and do learn from history which can easily span a few hundred years, if not more. Heck, you have videos of 1930s fascists' speeches on Youtube.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Racism is at least as prevalent - and far more out-in-the-open - in Europe than in the US. There should be BLM or equivalent protests all over Europe, frankly. It's shocking how openly racist Europeans are (whether eg Italians about Africans, Germans about anyone, or Europeans routinely about gypsies). You're, unsurprisingly, getting downvoted for this comment, but you are entirely correct. Racism is actually far m…

I grew up with blackface (zwarte piet), sung about him/her, even was one on occasion. Never thought anything about it. Until out of nowhere I get called a racist and people show up screaming "Racist!" at a, what was always, just a fun time for kids. Sure, I, and many people in my country, had a reaction against it, very conservative in nature. But now, over a few years and seeing some reasonable people explain to me…

As a white British male I was never a victim in this so I know the apology is not for me, but I greatly appreciate the message you convey. It felt wrong seeing no replies to your post; this is deserving of a response and so: thank you for your time and your honesty.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#570
post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those policies aren't actually popular though. They were were forced by the EU, other pan-European NGOs and a political class that has things nicely sewn up (i.e. if the major parties agree then you have nobody to vote for). Europe has a democratic deficit that gets airbrushed out a lot of the time. The UK had to leave the entire thing to try and get immigration under control and have still totally failed - they can'…

The EU doesn't have a Court of Human Rights, that's an institution of the Council of Europe, which is unrelated to the EU.

You're right, I should have written the "European Court of Human Rights".
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