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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#561

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

It's not just that, it's that driving a car (or being driven in one) while not owning one is pretty affordable in comparison to owning a car an then not using it a lot. Which is of course what a lot of people do. They talk up the need for them to go on long journeys and how important it is to have just the right vehicle for that. But the reality is that on average people only drive about 15000 miles at best. There are some outliers of course. But they go both ways. There are lots of people that drive far less than that.

If you think about it, the prospect of getting a loan to finance some expensive vehicle that costs tens of thousands of euros/dollars and then paying loads more every month for insurance, taxes, maintenance, and fuel is not very appealing. Some people spend many hundreds of dollars of their own money every month on a thing that they arguably could do without. And then there is parking as well. Parking is not cheap in bigger cities. There are cities where you need a mortage to be able to afford to buy the right to have your own parking place.

If you add all of that up, you can free up quite a nice budget for alternative ways to get around. I use taxis/ubers when I need them. I walk short distances or use a bike (nice and its good for me). I can hop on public transport at a reasonable cost. Total cost for all of this per month is probably around 50 euros in a typical month. I have a lease bike that costs me 22/month. The rest is public transport and an occasional uber. I technically also have access to car sharing but I rarely use that. Price is similar to an Uber and Uber is more convenient for me.

So, that's my day to day travel needs covered. I don't need a car for that and here in Germany, even a really shitty old car would probably cost me way more than that. I could double or triple my uber usage and it would still be cheaper.

For longer distance, I take trains and the occasional plane. If I need a car, I rent one. Happens maybe a few times a year. Total cost for car rental would be at best a 1000-1500 in an average year (including fuel). I can't make a case for owning a vehicle to cover any of that. And I don't think I ever will.

For the future, self driving cars might add some more options and flexibility. Getting a self driving car to pick me up would allow me to be driven while I nap at night to some far away destination. Door to door service, private, comfortable, etc. No need to own a car for that. And that could probably be cheaper than a train/flight + hotel. Not that hard to build a business around having something like that with some luxury options. Why would you ever own a car if you can get something like that to pick you up to go wherever on a moment's notice? How often could you do that before it becomes cheaper to own the car? Self driving will turn car rental on its head. You don't go some place to pick up the car. You get picked up by the car.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#562
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swapping trains can take a while, but until self driving works you can’t do much while driving. And even with self driving simply getting up and stretching, grabbing a bite to eat, or even just going to the bathroom requires you to stop making progress for a while. Driving has several advantages, but getting stuck in traffic is extremely unpleasant in ways that similar delays on other forms of travel don’t really rep…

This is really the selling point of mass transit for me. But I have a problem. I'm an introvert and I get fatigued by constant human interaction. I also get fatigued by constant distractions. I really benefit from having some breathing space where I can zone out. Saying it out load makes it sound reckless and inconsistent, doesn't driving require constant attention? But no, somehow I can zone out drive and drive to m…

With safe, separated infrastructure, a commute of the same duration via bicycling or walking would be even better for your physical and mental health. We all live in a prison of car supremacy, whether we realize it or not.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the tone of "problems with cars in densely populated areas" and those discussing them tend to completely ignore the significant part of the population that the argument is redundant for.

Yes, talking about adding bike lanes in cities and improving public transportation should really infuriate the rural demographic that continually think everything is about them and their way of life. These ideas must all come from the cult of anti-car that wants to come into every tiny city and change everything overnight apparently. It’s typical status quo paranoia that always tries to halt any progress in these are…

the rural demographic that continually think everything is about them and their way of life

Rubbish, these articles are nearly always written by and supported by the dominant voice in the mainstream media - young, liberal city-dwellers, who seem to have no concept that there is a huge part of the population who are funding their "progress", often at the expense of their own infrastructure and quality of life.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#564
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jobs they can easily get to. Which in tech was basically impossible in, say, Boston 25 years ago. Really? There was plenty of tech in Kendall Sq area within an easy walk from the T. I worked for three different companies in that area and regularly walked from a couple of different apartments (generally leaving my car in the company parking garage). It might have been impossible to do that in tech in other cities, b…

When Teradyne moved out of Boston, that was pretty much the last major tech company that was in Boston as I recall. The outposts of the west coast companies are much newer as is most of the pharma/biotech. All the big computer companies were out in Metrowest (one of which I worked for) and the defense companies were outside the city as well. In any case, I certainly didn't have any job offers in Boston/Cambridge when…

Akamai was founded there in 1995. Thinking Machines moved to that general area in 1984. Lotus Software was nearby since 1982. Infocom was there in the 1980s. Google opened Cambridge in 2003. Several other MIT-spinoff startups came and went, of course (Lisp Machines/Symbolics).

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#565
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

> As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked... Do you feel the same way about your home? Your day's itinerary will inevitably have to see you return there, too. Too see the other side, it may be useful to think of a personal car as home-like transportation infrastructure and always using public transit…

Driving is not like being at home because it requires active focus and continuous observation of an evolving social situation where other people’s decisions could cost lives.

If sitting on a train is like being in a hostel, then driving is like doing tedious office work in a cubicle. I’d rather hang out at the hostel.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people will leave it for work, but they will stop and play within 15 minutes of home. Even that assumes you don't have relatively specific hobbies. Which I guess is true for many people, but it's highly unlikely that (for example) my preferred martial arts instructor and my preferred dance instructor are going to be within 15 minutes of where I live. And of course, your girlfriend/boyfriend, if you don't live…

What are you getting at? Are you incapable of nuance? It was already stated that a 15 minute city isn't a place you never leave, it's a place where you can meet your daily needs within 15 minutes. If you want to go to a specific martial arts instructor, then yes, you probably have to leave. But if you just want a place to work out, that will be around. If you want to go to a specific grocer, you will probably have to…

> What are you getting at? Are you incapable of nuance?

Your rudeness aside, what I'm getting at is that I'll likely have to leave once or twice a day even not accounting for work. I live in a European city and get everywhere by car BTW.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#567

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

It's also a tacky and gaudy display of wealth just for a rapidly depreciating asset built at an environmental cost for a function a lot of us don't need that much. I'm not young, but I don't care about cars in the slightest and can't wait for a post car society whatever that might look like.

Really depends on the person, if they're hobby is working/driving cars like enthusiasts it doesnt really make sense to look down on them. For some people a car is more than an utility.

"A lot of us dont need cars"? what an biased onesided view of the world, how travelled are you? Because outside of your soy latte zones vehicles are a huge need for day to day life.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. Previous generations would just go out for a ride, take the car out on Sunday and and enjoy the scenery. We just don't do that anymore, either because we're more concerned about the environmental effects of driving, or that we just have more interesting things to do. Not to mention, when this idea of "the freedom of a car" came about, ev…

Cars are a classic "tragedy of the commons" due to how much space they take up and the infrastructure they take up. The places where it might've been 'nice to go for a drive' are not that way anymore because they have changed by everyone having a car. The windy country roads without anyone living on them are now filled with people that 'want to live in the country' but ironically do not because everyone wanted that.

Yep. There was once an Ivan Illich (first I'd encountered him!) piece about cars linked on here some years back, which piece claimed that due to the effects of cars on infrastructure and cities they were only generally beneficial early on, when few had them, and later, if you can pay to have a driver (so, on average, they're now only net-beneficial to the rich). This is for city and suburb dwellers, mind you, not rural folks.

He claimed that the sweet spot for actually-liberating transit technology was bicycles.

I ran some conservative numbers and, sure enough, take out the time worked to pay for my car and make some reasonable (but, conservative) guesses about how much closer my house would be to where I need to go if you cut out all the stuff that's only there for cars (really wide margin-zones and medians for highway, huge interchanges, gigantic parking lots far bigger than the building they serve, front lawns generally, et c.) and, despite my living only a medium-distance from the city center and making way above median income for my city... I'm roughly at break-even versus that alternative bikes-mostly world where cars are just for emergencies, deliveries to businesses, and public transit buses & elderly assistance and such, and aren't owned by individuals near the city.

The numbers get worse fast if you live any farther out, or if you make closer to median income. Like, plainly-negative-value from cars being widespread.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#569
post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, once I started cycling, public transportation became a painful exercise in constraint. I would even prefer to cycle through freezing temperatures on icy roads rather than cram myself into a train or on a bus. Luckily for me, the bike ride was a 20 minute commute for most of my 20s, while the bus/train would be 40 minutes, and a care would also be about 30-40 minutes with traffic. True freedom for me is the motor…

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#570
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I detest my car. Not only is it generally more expensive than public transport, you always have to set aside money to replace or fix broken parts. Regularly driving to the oil station sucks. Traffic jams, which are more and more commonplace, sucks.

I love my car. Not only is it faster and more convenient than public transport, it is highly reliable and not subject to union strikes. All of the maintenance is quick and cheap. There are multiple fuel stations nearby. Traffic jams do suck, but adaptive cruise control makes them suck a lot less.

> traffic jams do suck

Or put more succinctly, you agree cars suck. Some of us just go one car further.

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