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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#561

Post by natch »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #417
natch wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are meant to maintain control of the vehicle at all times with the beta. That’s the only way it could be released in its current state. Looking at it as anything other than a beta where you have to maintain control is misunderstanding what it is. Which you are clearly doing. It is absolutely expected to be worse than a drunk teenager in this stage.

I wonder if there’d be so many people eager to pay Tesla $$$ if it were marketed as “Worse Than Drunk Teenager Self Driving”.

Haha yeah I doubt it.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#562

Post by pbreit »

saudade97 wrote: post #494

The amount of Tesla apologism in HN is nasueasting. Per the NHTSA, a safety recall is issued if either the manufacturer or the NHTSA determines that a vehicle or its equipment pose a safety risk or do not meet motor vehicle safety standards. On its face, Tesla's situation clearly calls out for classification as a recall.

I had the opposite reaction. The author is an avowed Elon & Tesla hater and tried to work in the word "recall" in almost every sentence despite that it will be a simple over-the-air software update. No recall whatsoever.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#563

Post by sacrosancty »

2h wrote: post #434
panick21_ wrote: post #410

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives. Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases. The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What the…

I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system". We suspend the drivers license until they can prove they are capable of being a safe driver. We should hold this software to the same standard. Until it can demonstrate safety at or above human level, it should be outlawed. Road systems should always be worked on, but when a crash happens its usually the dr…

[dead]

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#564

Post by pbreit »

bigtex88 wrote: post #524
saudade97 wrote: post #494

The amount of Tesla apologism in HN is nasueasting. Per the NHTSA, a safety recall is issued if either the manufacturer or the NHTSA determines that a vehicle or its equipment pose a safety risk or do not meet motor vehicle safety standards. On its face, Tesla's situation clearly calls out for classification as a recall.

We live in a strange world. No one should worship that sad narcissistic piece of crap but yet the sycophants continue to multiply.

Arguably the greatest entrepreneur in history. Is that worthy of some praise?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#565

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

rootusrootus wrote: post #50

Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don't think there's any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more confident in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would…

>> To be fair, though, Tesla has no sensors other than cameras, and I believe the Mercedes has a half dozen or so, several radars and even a lidar.

Pf. Tensors beat sensors.

Just you wait for another garbanzillion miles driven. Then you'll see.

/s

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#566

Post by toomuchtodo »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #525
toomuchtodo wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is limited to certain pre mapped roads, under 40 mph and requires a car in front to follow. This in no way compares to Tesla's Autopilot system. Edit (because HN throttling replies): > Mercedes is being responsible about their rollout You can always succeed if you define success. If rolling out something that doesn't do much of anything is success, success? Oh well. Less than 20 people have died related to Autop…

It is in no way comparable to Tesla's Autopilot system. Mercedes has an actual feature while Tesla recklessly gambles with other peoples' lives to juice their stock price. If Tesla believes that their feature is safe, then let them take legal liability for it.

The law does not require they take liability, so they shouldn’t. If you don’t like the law, change the law. If you don’t want to use a driver assist feature, don’t. But the data shows Autopilot is robust and regulators allow its continued sale and operation.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#567

Post by literalAardvark »

notyourwork wrote: post #539
Kranar wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, the term recall conjures images of vehicles having to be taken back to the dealership to get repaired, replaced, or refunded. The recall announced here is just an over the air software update. It's worth pointing this out.

It’s really not a differentiator. Is it? Issue is still an issue and must be addressed. OTA doesn’t change that.

It certainly is different. Recalls are expensive and annoying for the user, involving drives and waiting times. This is an OTA update.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#568

Post by [deleted] »

saudade97 wrote: post #494

The amount of Tesla apologism in HN is nasueasting. Per the NHTSA, a safety recall is issued if either the manufacturer or the NHTSA determines that a vehicle or its equipment pose a safety risk or do not meet motor vehicle safety standards. On its face, Tesla's situation clearly calls out for classification as a recall.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#569

Post by panick21_ »

2h wrote: post #434
panick21_ wrote: post #410

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives. Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases. The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What the…

I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system". We suspend the drivers license until they can prove they are capable of being a safe driver. We should hold this software to the same standard. Until it can demonstrate safety at or above human level, it should be outlawed. Road systems should always be worked on, but when a crash happens its usually the dr…

> I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system".

Well yes, and that is literally exactly the problem. That is exactly why its so unsafe in the US. Because instead of building a safe system everything is blamed on people.

In countries that take road safety seriously, every crash is analyzed and often the road system is changed to make sure it does not happen again. That is why places like Finland, Netherlands and so on have been consistently improving in terms of death and harm caused by the road system.

Again, the book I linked goes into a lot of detail about road safety engineering.

> We suspend the drivers license until they can prove they are capable of being a safe driver.

An unsafe designed street often leads to situation where even good drivers intuitively do the wrong thing. Again, this is exactly the problem.

If you build a system where lots of avg. drivers make accidents, then you have a lot of accidents.

> We should hold this software to the same standard. Until it can demonstrate safety at or above human level, it should be outlawed.

Yes, but its a question of how much limited resources should be invested in analyzing and validating each piece of software by each manufacturer. In general software like Tesla AP would likely pass this test.

I am not against such tests but the reality is that resources are limited.

> Road systems should always be worked on, but when a crash happens its usually the drivers fault, except in a minority of cases where bad road engineering is to blame.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Its a totally false analysis. If a system is designed in a way known to be non-intuitive and leading to a very high rate accidents then its a bad system. Just calling everybody who makes a mistake a bad drive is a terrible, terrible approach to safety.

Once you have a safe road system, if somebody is an extremely bad driver, yes taking that person of the road is good. However in a country where so much of the population depends on a car, that punishment can literally destroy a whole family. So just applying it to anybody who makes a mistake isn't viable, specially in system that makes it incredibly easy to make mistakes.

The numbers don't even show the problem, the unsafe road system leads to less people walking in the US, and somehow still creating a high rate of deaths for people who walk.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#570

Post by Domenic_S »

billiallards wrote: post #555
Kranar wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, the term recall conjures images of vehicles having to be taken back to the dealership to get repaired, replaced, or refunded. The recall announced here is just an over the air software update. It's worth pointing this out.

In the same way that the term "full self driving" or "autopilot" conjures images of vehicles driving themselves? Not sure that Tesla should be opening the "what do words mean" can of worms right now.

> In the same way that the term "full self driving" or "autopilot" conjures images of vehicles driving themselves?

I disagree with your point here, but whether correct or not you should be consistent: if words conjuring things is important, then the previous commenter's point is valid.

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