Live data from Hacker News

We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

githubcopilotlitigation.com

561–570 of 824 posts

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#561
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your code is not in that thing. That thing has merely read your code and adjusted its own generative code. It is not directly using your code any more than programmers are using print statements. A book can be copyrighted, the vocabulary of language cannot. A particular program can be copyrighted, but snippets of it cannot, especially when they are used in a different context. And that is why this lawsuit is dead on…

Just to be clear; I cannot prove that they have used my code, but for the sake of argument, lets assume so. They would have directly used my code when they trained the thing. I see it as an equivalent of creating a zip-file. My code is not directly in the zip file either. Only by the act of un-zipping does it come back, which requires a sequence of math-steps.

But there is no equivalent of "unzipping" for Copilot.

This is a generative neural network. It doesn't contain a copy of your code; it contains weightings that were slightly adjusted by your code. Getting it to output a literal copy is only possible in two cases:

- If your code solves a problem that can only be solved in a single way, for a given coding style / quality level. The AI will usually produce the same result, given the same input, and it's going to be an attempt at a solution. This isn't copyright violation.

- If 'your' code has actually already been replicated hundreds of times over, such that the AI was over-trained on it. In that case it's a copyright violation... but how come you never went after the hundreds of other violations?

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#562

I am sorry for not bringing any kind of legal perspective here, but: *Jesus Christ*, I hope I live long enough to see copyright die. Here we are at the cusp of a new paradigm of commanding computers to do stuff for us, right at the beginning of the first AI development which actually impresses me. And we are fucking bickering about how we were cheated out of $0.00034 because our repo from 2015 might have been used fo…

> And we are fucking bickering about how we were cheated out of $0.00034 because our repo from 2015 might have been used for training.

I just hope Microsoft AutoPlagiarist is not the Final Solution to Free Software they have been seeking since before the millennium's turn.

Seems to me this discussion is likely to pivot on a fulcrum located between "old enough to remember Microsoft before Bill Gates began spending his ill-gotten gains on philanthropy" and "young enough to see Microsoft primarily as the Xbox people".

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#563
post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

copilot isn't creating derivative works: copilot users are. the human at the keyboard is responsible for what goes into the source code being written. to aid copilot users here, they are creating tools to give users more info about the code they are seeing: https://github.blog/2022-11-01-preview-referencing-public-co...

Your argument is essentially the same as the argument that the pirate bay didn't infringe copyright, it only facilitated infringement. And we all saw how well that went legally.

Pirate Bay couldn't be used to do anything but infringe copyright, practically. That's not true for Copilot.

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#564
post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your code is not in that thing. That thing has merely read your code and adjusted its own generative code. It is not directly using your code any more than programmers are using print statements. A book can be copyrighted, the vocabulary of language cannot. A particular program can be copyrighted, but snippets of it cannot, especially when they are used in a different context. And that is why this lawsuit is dead on…

I agree. If I read JRR Tolkien and then go and write a fantasy novel following a unexpected hero on his dangerous quest to undo evil, I haven't infringed, even if I use some of Tolkien's better turns of phrase.

Hmm. Are you sure that's true?

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#565

I am sorry for not bringing any kind of legal perspective here, but: *Jesus Christ*, I hope I live long enough to see copyright die. Here we are at the cusp of a new paradigm of commanding computers to do stuff for us, right at the beginning of the first AI development which actually impresses me. And we are fucking bickering about how we were cheated out of $0.00034 because our repo from 2015 might have been used fo…

You haven’t actually thought through what kind of world it would be if there was no copyright law, have you? I don’t know what your political leanings are, but I’ve met some libertarians who are blissfully naive about the extent to which their world and worldview is buttressed by laws and the governments that enforce them, and your comment reminds me of that.

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#566
post #546
post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The resource is not "free": it is provided under a license that attempts to lay out the terms the entity using the resource must comply with in order to get the benefit of using their product; just because this is a non-monetary compensation doesn't mean it is "free".

Authors of code (open source or otherwise) hold a copyright in that code. The purpose of the license agreement is to set out the terms on which the authors will permit others to take actions that would otherwise infringe copyright. Using code, photographs, documents, or other material to train a model isn't copyright infringement. The person operating the model is not violating the exclusive rights of the copyright a…

> The person operating the model is not violating the exclusive rights of the copyright author: they are not making copies or derivative works.

How do they not make copies? Do you know how a computer works? Ever heard of RAM? (At least the German Urheberrecht recognizes this clearly: You can't do any processing on any data with the help of a computer without at least making temporary local copies, so there are exceptions to some rules. I'm quite sure common law copyright also recognizes this!)

Also the claim that this is not a derivative work is actually one of the disputed claims here…

> Any other result means that all AI development based on training models is going to grind to a screeching halt, because essentially all training material—text, pictures, recordings—is copyrighted.

Exactly, it's all copyrighted! That's why you can't use it for whatever you like. That's the whole point of copyright.

As a result this means that whoever wants to exploit that work in said way needs to buy (or get otherwise) a license!

Nobody said that feeding AI with properly licensed work would be problematic. Only the original creators need to get their fair cut form the outcome of such process.

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#567
post #548
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TabNine has absolutely improved my life as a programmer. There's something really rewarding about having a robot read your mind for entire blocks of code. It's not just functions either, one of the most common things that it helps me with daily is simple stuff like this: Typing const x = { a: 'one', b: 'two', ... } And later I'll be typing y = [ a['one'], b[' It's really amazing the amount of busy-work typing in prog…

That autocomplete was sort of ok in tabnine, but Copilot completely blows it out of the water. Resource consumption for Copilot is also much more restrained. Which reminds me I have to cancel my tabnine subscription. Been paying them for a year without using it.

I haven't tried Copilot personally but thanks I'll try it. I did try TabNine over a year ago and found it's improved dramatically since then so maybe it's gotten better within training.

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#568
Let me (start or join the call) for federal investigation and the filing of criminal complaints in all relevant locales.

Grand theft , interstate wire fraud and conspiracy for same.

This is a criminal matter as well as civil. Intentional and knowing violation of the law.

We must not let our work be taken!

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#569
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't heard anyone saying that copilot is legal "just because it's AI." That's a pretty bad faith, reductive, and disingenuous representation. The core argument I've seen is that the output is sufficiently transformative and not straight up copying.

> The core argument I've seen is that the output is sufficiently transformative and not straight up copying. An argument that isn't made about any other type of algorithm.

You can't copyright an algorithm, you can copyright a particular expression of one, or you can attempt to patent an algorithm, but two authors can legitimately write the same thing and not infringe on each others copyright unless one copied from the other.

Re: We've filed a lawsuit against GitHub Copilot

#570
post #270

I’m not a lawyer, but here is why I believe a class action lawsuit is correct; “AI” is just fancy speak for “complex math program”. If I make a program that’s simply given an arbitrary input then, thought math operations, outputs Microsoft copyright code, am I in the clear just because it’s “AI”? I think they would sue the heck out of me if I did that, and I believe the opposite should be true as well. I’m sure my ow…

Humans are just compression with extra steps by that logic. There's a fairly simple technical fix for codex/copilot anyway; stick a search engine on the back end and index the training data and don't output things found in the search engine.

If I were to memorize my employer's IP then reproduce it (almost) verbatim and give it to a competitor, then I would be setting myself up for a world of legal hurt.

So yes, it is like how human memory is compression with extra steps.

Post reply on HN