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Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

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Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I chose my language precisely. The paper is much more definitive than you're claiming, beginning with the title: "The Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was the early epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic." You may have chose your language precisely, but you've read meaning into the text that wasn't there. An epicenter is NOT where a thing started, and it's not in any doubt to even the most die-hard conspiracy t…

> The idea that these are "settled facts" flies in the face of papers like this that go to great lengths to hedge their language. This paper does not go to great lengths to hedge its statements, and the authors have very explicitly stated on numerous occasions that their work rules out the lab leak idea. > An epicenter is NOT where a thing started, and it's not in any doubt to even the most die-hard conspiracy theori…

My initial statement wasn't for or against - it was that the method of argument isn't going to work on many people here on Hacker News, not because we're a bunch of antivaxxer conspiracy theorists, but because we're predominantly a bunch of people who work with logic, day in day out.

Things like:

> the authors have very explicitly stated on numerous occasions

... appeal to authority, and then fails to mention even one of those occasions, instant ignore

> First, the fact that multiple strains of the virus were found directly in the market is a very strong indication that there were multiple spillover events at the market. Second, it has now been established that wild animals that are susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 were being sold at the market during the time period when the outbreak began.

This feels like an attempt at causing a "baffled by BS" response, something HN is particularly immune to - though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you're simply trying to use the correct nomenclature. In reality, you've not said anything here that contradicts anything I've said - multiple spillovers simply indicates that an animal reservoir existed before or concurrently to the initial outbreak period - it doesn't give any evidence for or against any particular primary source. If the unfamiliar terminology doesn't cause people to instantly skip, the lack of new insight will.

> Third, the concentration of cases at and around the market, but not around the Wuhan Institute of Virology

Generally speaking, I wouldn't expect there to be a large number of cases of a disease spread at or near a facility that deals with the testing of viruses and has strict containment protocols. Don't know about you, but I would hope they know how to wash their hands 99.9% of the time - I would hope a virus finding its way out of the campus or shared between professionals would be an extremely rare event.

That said, it would be interesting to see a side-by-side study, with the same statistical techniques, of a similar type of lab. There have been other lab leaks every few years, but as the paper points out, the large amount of attention brought about by the pandemic means a lot more data about this leak than we usually get.

> People who have followed the scientific investigations into the origins of SARS-CoV-2 over the past 2.5 years know that the lab leak theory was always highly unlikely

... and it's exactly this intuition that stokes skepticism. Because if something was always considered unlikely, that's rarely the basis for sound science.

> Their theories are becoming more convoluted and contrived as the evidence rules out each version of the theory

Again, this statement suffers from low sample size, lack of examples, and uneven evaluation. A supporter of your POV presents a new hypothesis? Tries to find evidence to support or refute it? That's great! Science at work. A supporter of the Lab-leak theory presents a new hypothesis? It's just an absurd convoluted and contrived new theory because they couldn't get their last one to work.

And again, people skip over it, because the bias is obvious, and it doesn't come close to answering the question that laypeople are searching for answers to - i.e. where did SARS-CoV-2 originally come from.

Anyway, hopefully this has helped you see why a rational rejection of your arguments in this particular space is not evidence of tinfoil hats clinging to irrational conspiracy theories. By all means, bring your faith. Bring some evidence too, and many of us would love to join you. But without the evidence, a certain assured opinion is not going to help you here.

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#562
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the question I asked someone else was — What would you accept as evidence of "no lab involvement"?

Not the poster you're responding to, but a start is to allow external investigation into the labs by a third party.

The only way that could resolve these questions is if evidence of lab involvement was found.

Not finding such evidence has WithinReason saying "There is also no evidence that the epidemic had no lab involvement."

one cannot prove that ghosts do not exist

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#563

What has become of early Covid reportings, like the (alleged) Italian finding of Covid-19 in blood samples from Sept. 2019 taken in Lombardy (and similar findings in sewage sampoles from Barcelona)? Has there been any clear proof established, either for the support of this or to the contrary? [1] "Coronavirus emerged in Italy earlier than thought, Italian study shows" (Reuters, 2020-11-15): https://www.reuters.com/ar…

[deleted]

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#564
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to want to play a guessing game.

Not sure why I have to spell it out: Finding COVID in animals in the Huanan market and tracing them back to a wild population infected with COVID would be a knock down argument against a lab leak.

Spelling it out avoids unnecessary misunderstanding, thank you.

Apparently "No reports are known to be available for SARS-CoV-2 test results from these mammals at the Huanan market" and "we do not have access to any live animal samples from relevant species" and "The animals on these farms (nearly 1 million) were rapidly released, sold, or killed in early 2020 … apparently without testing for SARS-CoV-2 … Live animals sold at the market … were apparently not sampled either."

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

So the evidence you require will never be found.

----

otoh "Multiple positive samples were taken from one stall known to have sold live mammals, and the water drain proximal to this stall, as well as other sewerages and a nearby wildlife stall on the southwest side of the market, tested positive for SARS-CoV-2."

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#565
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because there were no documented cases of live bats or live pangolins being sold in that market. Was selling live bats or live pangolins legal?

I guess you are saying that because it was illegal, the Government couldn't find out if it happened. Something like Captain Renault in Casablanca being shocked that gambling was happening around there [1]. [1] https://noagenda.fandom.com/wiki/I%27m_shocked,_shocked_to_f... !

I assume "vendors were selling live mammals, including raccoon dogs, hog badgers, and red foxes, immediately before the COVID-19 pandemic" and that was illegal and — at various levels of city and regional government — well known to be happening.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

I guess "The animals on these farms (nearly 1 million) were rapidly released, sold, or killed in early 2020…" because those involved in the illegal trade did not wish to be held responsible for a repeat of SARS-CoV-1.

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#566
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> … no evidence that the epidemic had no lab involvement… "So you simply cannot prove general claims that are negative claims -- one cannot prove that ghosts do not exist; one cannot prove that leprechauns too do not exist. One simply cannot prove a negative and general claim." https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_re... . What would you accept as evidence of "no lab involvement"?

Confirming zooinosis outside of the lab (eg outside Wuhan) would disprove lab leak Finding the animal reservoir, would disprove it was modified in the lab. I guess it would also lower the chance of a lab leak (though I could still be natural) China allowing a proper investigation would reduce the odds (though how to prove they haven't tampered with evidence in the years since) I think every day the natural source isn…

? "Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) is a zoonotic virus—one that spilled over from another species to infect and transmit among humans. … Sequencing has subsequently shown that mink-to-human transmission also occurred."

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abe5901

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their vaccine being worthless didn’t help

Irrelevant - our vaccines are also worthless by this point. They don't work against Omicron and there's no difference in infection or fatality rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated by now. There hasn't been for months. Or actually, infection rates are usually reported to be higher in the vaccinated group but by how much depends on age and number of doses. There was a difference at the beginning, although it's unc…

Such a controversial statement requires sources. A quick Google seems to disagree (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/united-states-rates-of-co...), although I don't have the energy to dig into it more than that since I hardly have the burden of proof.

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#568
post #504
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to want to play a guessing game.

> COVID was never found in any animal from the Huanan market Seems pretty straightforward to me. The Chinese said it came from a market, but never found a single animal in that market with COVID.

"Trump says that 'if we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases' of the coronavirus."

Apparently "No reports are known to be available for SARS-CoV-2 test results from these mammals at the Huanan market" and "we do not have access to any live animal samples from relevant species" and "The animals on these farms (nearly 1 million) were rapidly released, sold, or killed in early 2020 … apparently without testing for SARS-CoV-2 … Live animals sold at the market … were apparently not sampled either."

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#569
post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nature, and evolution, don't follow motive based logic. Random mutations that are temporarily beneficial but are detrimental to the long term do happen. To put it another way, a cell mutates based off of random chance. It doesn't have desires. We only have to go back as far as 1918 to see an example of a virus that could not have been engineered and was highly transmissible and highly deadly. As you say, in the long…

> temporarily beneficial This was the crux of my point.

Then your point makes no sense.

Re: Covid: Summary of lab-origin hypothesis

#570
post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why I have to spell it out: Finding COVID in animals in the Huanan market and tracing them back to a wild population infected with COVID would be a knock down argument against a lab leak.

Spelling it out avoids unnecessary misunderstanding, thank you. Apparently "No reports are known to be available for SARS-CoV-2 test results from these mammals at the Huanan market" and "we do not have access to any live animal samples from relevant species" and "The animals on these farms (nearly 1 million) were rapidly released, sold, or killed in early 2020 … apparently without testing for SARS-CoV-2 … Live animal…

They could still find a recent common ancestor of the original strain in a bat species for example.

COVID samples from the market could have come from a human spreader.

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