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EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

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Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#561

Post by gernb »

hyperpape wrote: post #175

There's several very good provisions in this legislation (3rd party payment processors, non-preferential treatment for 1st party apps), there are several that have a mix of upsides and downsides (sideloading is one--I personally like knowing that Facebook can't ask people to sideload some privacy destroying crap on iOS). Then there's: - Allow developers to integrate their apps and digital services directly with those…

> Facebook can't ask people to sideload some privacy destroying crap on iOS

That is arguably the responsibility of the OS and the user. Lots of ways to do that. Examples: Network, no network access unless use gives permission. App manifest lists up to 10 domains or "all". If "all", user is prompted "App would like to access entire network Y/N"?

What else is there? Camera access? Camera can be multiple permissions (a) User gives app full access (b) User gives app access only when app is active (c) User doesn't give access. Note: iOS already does a good job at this. I don't give the Messenger app access to my camera, nor do I give it direct access to photos, only selected ones.

Same with NFC etc. I'm guessing Apple will come up with clever ways to allow the user to limit access.

Bluetooth, no idea what they do here and I don't know bluetooth but I'd just guess devices have ids and the OS could require an app to list a limited id filter so an app can only talk to devices built for that app unless the user gives blanket permission

I suppose FB can put an app on another store that doesn't run without full access. If user says "no" then app says "can't run". That's fine. I won't run it. Individual stores are still allowed to enforce their own rules. I can't imagine Apple's store to not be the dominate store and therefore apps from it will be safer. (Unless someone steps up to make an even safer store ;)

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#562

Post by sircastor »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #393
cycomanic wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we stop pretending that Apple has the users best interest in mind? They just want to be the gatekeeper for lucrative applications/functions so they can charge for it. That they somehow convinced apple users that it's somehow in their interest just shows how good their marketing is.

As a byproduct it does give a measure of privacy so what's it to you if apple users just don't care about your idea of freedom? I hope this European legislation at least lets apple customers opt-IN to these new features or choose the old way of doing business. I would prefer to keep access footprints to a minimum to stuff like NFC, contacts, hardware APIs, apple pay, etc on my phone.

In theory you already have the choice of opting-in by choosing not to install apps that utilize NFC, hardware APIs, other payment processors, etc.

But that's if nothing changed. My concern is that if companies are given the opportunity to have their own stores, and their own payment processors, we're going to end up with de-facto-forced-install of a store and acceptance of terms, and it favors companies that already have a strong presence in the marketplace. I might want to use WhatsApp, but now I need to install Meta's store, and I'm required to give it access to a blanket set of permissions.

And guess who doesn't have the power/influence to get you to install a custom store: The small devs, the new entrants, the challenger apps.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#563

Post by warkdarrior »

Hamuko wrote: post #138
aaaaaaaaata wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's Signal on Mac, Electron?

Yes. Signal.app/Contents/Frameworks/Electron Framework.framework

What's stopping Signal from creating their own native MacOS app?

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#564

Post by saiya-jin »

ynniv wrote: post #529
ko27 wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things Your argument is ridiculous. People didn't choose iPhone because they wanted to deprive themself of an option to switch browsers engines or payment vendors either. People actually chose iPhones for a thousand other reasons.

No one chooses phones based on browser engines. Why anyone is upset with Apple improving security by only allowing executable pages in Safari is beyond my comprehension.

I would, after this and switch to usb-c. 3 months ago I was deciding where to put 1300 euro, apple vs samsung top of the line, and samsung won. This was 1 out of cca 4-5 points that decided it (sideloading, notch, usb-c, better zoom photos for family/nature, weight... apple had only battery as plus).

Firefox mobile with ublock origin (and other plugins) makes general internet seriously usable.

Sideloading for me is not about some cracked games. I have older (otherwise still good) Pioneer receiver that had failing remote, and official (but unsupported and removed from store) app to control it. Otherwise I need to shell 500-1000$ for new one of comparable quality.

Clearly, for some obscure reason nobody can explain, not everybody in this world has your mindset, values and decisions. Something to learn here.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#565

Post by sircastor »

dingleberry420 wrote: post #538
wmeredith wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Are you really sure?", "Apple takes no responsibility not warranty" Sounds good to me. As a techie who maintains several phones for several family members at a variety of tech-literate levels, I certainly hope this experience sucks and is difficult to figure out.

Don't worry, it won't be legal for Apple to void the warranty for this.

The concern is not a voided warranty. The concern is tech-illiterate users being able to install some random app they found on the web. They find a special version of Facebook and install it, and now their phone is compromised.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#566

Post by majewsky »

judge2020 wrote: post #401
samatman wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the second paragraph at all. Apple sets a restrictive and privacy-centric set of rules for advertisers, which it then follows. The fact that this is a problem for other advertising companies is an indictment of those companies and their bleak surveillance-enabling business model. Contrast this with the "use WebKit or go home" rule, which, like it or not, is favoring Apple's product over others. It'…

Exactly. This is the popup for app store personalized ads[0], which is a full-screen popup that forces you to choose one or the other before you can access the app. It's super transparent and easy to decline the personalization. 0: https://videoweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Apple-permi...

I wonder how many people actually register that there are two buttons at the bottom? It's very obvious to power-users like us since we're used to

  [ Accept ]     Cancel
at this point, but I can only imagine the borderless design for the secondary button originating from a dark pattern.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#567

Post by shapefrog »

threeseed wrote: post #508
judge2020 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already do this to an extent[0], but maybe they're trying to make iMessage interop with RCS by force. 0: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/callkit

This one I can definitely see backfiring for the EU. Apple will just release a MessagesKit (maybe even an Android version) which will allow third party apps to read/write messages to the network. Which will simply grow its footprint and promote inoperability.

I am struggling to see how that is a backfire for the EU?

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#568

Post by jahewson »

simion314 wrote: post #142
s1k3s wrote: post #89

I can't make up my mind if this is good or bad. On one hand, FAANG has a huge advantage over anyone else on the market, but they did build that product and they did spend their own money to do it. I'd be curious if there are any other occurrences in history of something so big ending up regulated by the government?

Microsoft was forced to create open standards for documents, the docx format.

Not exactly - they were forced to publish the documentation for the binary formats, e.g. .doc publicly, without requiring royalties and with a covenant not to sue over use of any patents necessary for implementation. Previously the documentation was available to licensed 3rd parties only. OOXML is a subsequent creation.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#569

Post by FredPret »

wmeredith wrote: post #411
_the_inflator wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never underestimate the creative genius of Apple. They will come up with new solutions to keep their walled garden. "Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet" I bet this is going to be a horrible user experience. "Are you really sure?", "Apple takes no responsibility not warranty" whatsoever. What sound usually easy on paper...

> "Are you really sure?", "Apple takes no responsibility not warranty" Sounds good to me. As a techie who maintains several phones for several family members at a variety of tech-literate levels, I certainly hope this experience sucks and is difficult to figure out.

I love the walled garden. You want a self-managed server, buy one.

I want a foolproof thin client for myself and all the older people in my life

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#570

Post by Aulig »

cmdli wrote: post #386
synu wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a regular user I’m looking forward to all the same!

As a regular user, I am dreading the day when I am forced to sideload an app with no privacy regulations in order to use key services.

Well I the OS will still have the permission system in place even for sideloaded apps, so I don't see a huge issue here to be honest.
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