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The Coming Food Catastrophe

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Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#561
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, stop this moral high ground rhetorical hypocrisy of the highest order. The US has had no qualms about invading countries or applying sanctions that harm innocent people. There are no good guys. People will all do terrible things for "the greater good", there is no worldly greater good from these soulless bureaucratic monoliths of state hood. They will set targets and strive for them irrespective of the human…

This is literally the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Let me sum up this idiotic comment. 1. Millions protested against all the invasions by various countries. 2. Because they protested, but were ignored they can't be against this one also? No one is falling for your whataboutism. It is terrible when counties invade others regardless of who is doing the invasion. Stop being such a terrible sock-puppet.

Glad you think it's stupid. At least you thought about it :)

Honestly if you want to think your country is whiter than white and the Russians, Iraqis, Taliban, Gaddafi, ISIS, Iranians or whoever are the big evil and you must do whatever it takes to support stopping them being part of the world then that's up to you. But i don't support that view and find it hypocritical. I don't believe in the Liberal Idealogy nor do i see any good in a US led global hegemony and at the same time i've no connection to the Rus people so for me it's very clear that I would struggle to fight for either side.

BTW you do also know that whataboutism goes both ways because you are literally doing exactly the same thing. Frankly whataboutism is utter nonsense to hid hypocrisy.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#562
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is literally the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Let me sum up this idiotic comment. 1. Millions protested against all the invasions by various countries. 2. Because they protested, but were ignored they can't be against this one also? No one is falling for your whataboutism. It is terrible when counties invade others regardless of who is doing the invasion. Stop being such a terrible sock-puppet.

Glad you think it's stupid. At least you thought about it :) Honestly if you want to think your country is whiter than white and the Russians, Iraqis, Taliban, Gaddafi, ISIS, Iranians or whoever are the big evil and you must do whatever it takes to support stopping them being part of the world then that's up to you. But i don't support that view and find it hypocritical. I don't believe in the Liberal Idealogy nor do…

I never said that my country hasn't done bad things.

I have protested the Tories, and I have always voted against them because I know they are bad people.

I know that the majority of people in the UK have also voted against them and their policies. Your entire point is completely nonsensical.

Where on earth did I do "whataboutism"? You literally said that people cannot be against one invasion because someone else invaded, which they were probably against as well.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#563
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has already struck the Zatoka bridge south/west of Odessa, the best/shortest route from Odessa to Danube river and Black Sea ports in Romania. Most of the trains in Ukraine is electric-pulled. Russia has already struck most of the railway power transforming stations. Ukraine has very limited number of diesel trains. It can't use European ones because of different wheelbase. (correction thanks to the commenter…

> Most of the trains in Ukraine is electric-pulled. Russia has already struck most of the railway power transforming stations. Ukraine has very limited number of diesel trains. It can't use European ones because of different wheelbase. Ok top of that, there is a gauge change when crossing over from Ukraine to the west and the infrastructure towards the west is hardly at the level required. For example, train crossing…

Why in the world are train crossings from Poland to Germany not electrified yet??

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#565
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the person you were originally responding to, but I would point out that originally the statement was about if everyone is united in opposition, why are we still buying fossil fuel from Russia. This is not the same question as how it helps Ukraine, so I would be careful throwing around the word “misdirection”.

The original responder asked twice in a row whether or not i wanted an answer when there was obviously nothing rhetorical about my questions and so that is the misdirection. And we are now how deep in this thread without an answer to the simple question; how can a lack of EU energy embargo stand in solidarity with the sanctions and Ukraine. Please explain?

I think the original responder's concern, which I share, is that your question is really an opinion, rather than a genuine question, and that they (or I) would spend time writing a long, detailed response to what is a very complicated topic, only to be wasting our time because it would fall on the ears of someone who is not interested in listening (or reading).

I'll go for it though, and address the original question, which was 'If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)?', although you've rephrased it as 'please explain to me how all the European countries that are so united in solidatary with Ukraine can square the round hole of also paying Russia vast sums of money for energy?', and somewhat differently asked 'I don't know how paying Russia helps Ukraine, or are they not paying for energy?'

First off, I don't think anyone would argue that this in any way helps Ukraine. Of course, paying money to Russia is not going to help Ukraine. However, Europe has been dependent on Russian oil and gas for a long time, and it is not simple to just cut that off. 40% of gas supplied to the EU comes from Russia, and almost 30% of the EU's oil.

Second, I don't think anyone anticipated that this war would last longer than a month or two. I think the expectation from the EU's side was an overwhelming show of force from Russia, regime change in Ukraine, and a quick end to hostilities. Although the EU started discussing longer term moves away from Russian gas and oil at that point, I don't think there was a sense that this could have any short term impact in terms of supporting Ukraine (or cutting off indirect support for Russia). The EU, known for being slow to react and full of bureaucracy, was able to publish a plan on 8th March, less than two weeks after the invasion. The plan is very aggressive, and targets reducing imports from Russia by two-thirds within one year. This is a major economic blow to Russia, and likely was intended to scare Russia into changing their approach in Ukraine, unsuccessfully.

Third, just stopping paying for this fuel would likely be in breach of commercial agreements. Russia and Ukraine have been at war since 2014, and the EU has not stopped paying for gas. There are legal implications to not upholding your side of a contract, although I doubt that this is a serious consideration - likely this could be thrashed out quickly.

Fourth, if we stop paying, Russia would then cease supplying oil and gas to the EU. There are a number of reasons this would be problematic. First of all, the distribution systems we currently have need to be pressurised (this is not technically quite accurate, but it's a close enough analogy I don't think it's important to get into the details). If Russia stopped supplying gas and oil to the EU, there is an overhead for the EU to keep these pipelines pressurised to avoid the whole system collapsing. So additionally to losing 20-30% of Europe's fuel supply, Europe would additionally need to divert supplies to the network rather than it being available for use by users. I wasn't able to find details on the amount of technical gas consumed by the EU and what the gap would be, but during the previous fuel crisis, the gap for gas alone was 21 million cubic metres per day, which represents 2% of the EU's total daily consumption.

Fifth, the EU is struggling with economic challenges same as the rest of the world. We have high inflation, Cost of Living is going up faster than salaries. Reducing energy supply would necessitate massive price increases on fuel bills, which is currently being seen in the UK and very poorly received. As this war seems to be settling in to become a long, drawn out conflict.

Finally (at least for this comment), from a military strategy point of view, cutting off this income now would give Russia the opportunity to develop other income streams while operating on their reserves. Waiting until Russia is deep in an economic crisis, and has burned through their war chest before cutting off their cashflow is likely to lead to more acute hardship and be a stronger bargaining chip. I'm sure Russia are currently considering this as well, but there will be a 'sweet spot', before Russia are able to develop other income streams.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#566
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is literally engaging in a genocide You know, the US (and people who drink its kool-aid) has been leveling several such false accusations lately, another one being about the Chinese treatment of the Uyghurs. As a person whose family was decimated by genocide I'll tell you that it's quite insulting on the personal level; but beyond this - that kind of rhetoric has a "boy who cried wolf effect", and that's really bad…

Russia intentionally targets civilians in Ukraine, because they are Ukrainian, how does that not meet the definition of genocide? which is. `Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people — usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group — in whole or in part`.

When USA nuked Japanese civilians we didn't call it genocide. Targeting civilians is not the definition of genocide.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#567
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia intentionally targets civilians in Ukraine, because they are Ukrainian, how does that not meet the definition of genocide? which is. `Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people — usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group — in whole or in part`.

When USA nuked Japanese civilians we didn't call it genocide. Targeting civilians is not the definition of genocide.

But the targeting of a specific ethnic group, because they are that ethnic group is, isn't it?.

I think this is a pretty good article on the topic, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61017352 and presents both perspectives.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we had a famine in the last half century that was caused purely by production. The beauty of a working free market is that starving people are willing to pay quite a lot for cheap food, and so it's virtually impossible to starve just by being poor. The problem was always that the food couldn't get to them. I'd bet on a half-half mix of regulatory issues and fighting. But yeah, production issues can incr…

> starving people are willing to pay quite a lot for cheap food, and so it's virtually impossible to starve just by being poor. I think you're missing out some key facts about poor people.

Like the fact they are poor. .50 dollar a day won't feed your family.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetically, if the west actually wanted to give up sanctions in return for clearing the blockade.. why, in what universe, could they possibly expect Russia to stand by its word? Russia said for six months they were simply conducting exercises and had no intention of invading whatsoever. Why should anyone believe they would clear the blockade if sanctions lift?

If they don't stand by their word then they can re-impose the sanctions, it's as simple as that. > Why should anyone believe they would clear the blockade if sanctions lift Because at some point the West will have to sit at the negotiating table with Russia.

> Because at some point the West will have to sit at the negotiating table with Russia.

We can suffer for longer than they can stay solvent.

Re: The Coming Food Catastrophe

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree Putin is some kind of dictator, but are you really calling Ukraine democracy? Then you can also call North Korea democracy.

Uhm, yes? They elected a comedian with no political experience or ties for f's sake. But I suppose that was some sort of rigged election or he's just a figurehead or something?

Election where major opposition parties were banned? A democratic society where 40+% of population is not allowed to use their own language? When opposition leaders get arrested? Where almost a 100 people were publicly burned alive, and still no one is punished? Where right wing extremists / neonazi paramilitaries are incorporated in an official army and given a licence to kill, as documented by OSCE multiple times in eastern part of the country? And all that happened before this war. Just that they now fight Russians doesn't mean they are democracy, they are just a useful enemy of an enemy.

And the list goes on and on, although only one of the mentioned things would be enough to consider such a country as non-democratic at least.

I think corruption and a rule of oligarch is the least problem in a country like that.

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