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IBM's Asshole Test

johnpublic.mataroa.blog

561–570 of 604 posts

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you mean the leadership principles. Yes, that feels cult-ish, but is part of the company culture. I personally like part of them, but that's a topic of its own. For the purpose of the interview, Leadership Principles are dressing for behavioral questions. Actually I think this reinforces my point: rather than generic behavioral rounds, you know which areas you'll be asked about. Also you shouldn't memorize…

Not the grandparent, but I'm encountering this particular part of the AWS interview structure right now, and trying to decide whether to bother continuing. The ask, AFAICT, seems to be for me to prepare a collection of glib little short stories I can recite on demand in response to a "tell me about a time when..." question from a small list of possibilities. Certainly I can do this; however, I am applying for a role…

I feel cynicism in your answer. I can still give you an honest answer to your question.

Behavioral questions are far from new and not unique to Amazon. They serve two purposes: first, as a cultural match, and second, as a performance predictor.

The thing about Leadership Principles in Amazon is that they are not just slogans on the wall. They play a role in your day to day work. Things like your performance review and promotion consider how you apply these LPs to an extent.

Does it sound terrible? I can relate. But what is the alternative? I believe culture is a property of organizations. If you don't explicitly set a culture, one will emerge on its own. I have worked for several companies, and I appreciate the LPs. At least I explicitly know what "rules" to operate under.

So what if you think LPs are dumb or you hate them? that's fine. That means you wouldn't like it here, so it saves both from a bad match.

Back to your point about the interview. What useful information does this convey? quite a lot actually.

First they act as a sanity check. If we ask about Earns Trust, actually we are doing sort of the Asshole Test from OP. We are trying to determine if you are a pain to work with, or if you can establish good relationships with people. With Learn and be Curious we are trying to determine if you are open to learn new things. If you actively refuse to learn and just want to do your thing, you will probably struggle here. Things change fast and most everyone needs to adapt to keep up.

Second, they act as a calibration for role and leveling. Say you are hiring for a senior engineer position, and interview a candidate with +10 years of experience. However all of the candidate's examples are very simple, such as implementing a small feature. Will this candidate thrive as a senior engineer in Amazon where they will have to lead several engineers in multi-team efforts? At the very least we can say we don't have enough evidence to judge.

Third, it turns out some of them are actually good on-the-job performance indicators. Amazon has an internal science team that runs experiments on hiring. One of their experiments determined that high scores in certain LPs correlate with good performance after hire.

So there you go. You might personally dislike behavioral questions, and that is fair. However there is plenty of evidence to back up their usefulness in making hiring decisions. Now it's up to you to decide whether you want to work here or not.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#562
Always go to lunch, whichever side of the interview you're on. Preferably a place with table service - could even be a diner. How does your counterpart treat service staff ?

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Anything else wouls go against the sworn secret oath that every taxi driver lives by.

No I'm just sad that treating someone like a human being is considered a positive and not... you know... the absolute bare minimum someone could do.

I'm just sad that treating someone like a human being is considered a positive

Sure. Everyone should be sad about that. There are plenty of people out there who don't have any willingness to treat people in service jobs like driving a taxi with any sort of humanity. Too many people will just ignore the fact that these people are living, breathing human beings with feelings of their own, and treat them as if either they don't exist, or that they exist to serve them. It's quite appalling.

Treating someone like a human being means having kindness, respect, and empathy for them. It means not expecting them to demean themselves just because you're paying them to do something. It's treating them well even without knowing them.

It's quite a high bar apparently, and a lot of people out there don't manage it.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#565
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stress is a normal part of life. Too much stress is harmful, but too little stress is like living in zero gravity: we aren't built for it, and we start to deteriorate. But suppose you disagree. Let's think about it differently: maybe stress isn't inevitable at work, but being faced with a problem that you can't easily solve is. A candidate needs to be able to deal with that situation, so it's fair to expose t…

Stress is part of life and most software jobs have times of it though that should be an exception. I agree a sense of tendencies under stress should be observed. In a sense you make my point for me. Interviews are sufficiently high stakes to be inherently stressful and there are always many unknowns in them. I think the interviewers very important job is to establish psychological safety in the interview even while e…

Software developers are protected by their managers and, to the extent possible, exposed to limited and controlled stressors. I wouldn't say that getting assignments of limited and predictable difficulty is realistic, though, no matter how hard a manager tries. Even a junior dev will get tasks that turn out to be a lot harder than anybody anticipated, so it's reasonable to want to see how they respond. The only way to do that is to keep turning up the difficulty in the interview until they struggle.

As for managers of software developers, that feels like an entirely different beast to me. Managers have to be ready to be exposed to arbitrary and unlimited stressors, up to and including existential threats to the company or to their position, and they not only have to manage their own reactions to those stressors, they have to be mindful of their reports' stress at the same time. A manager needs to be able, on their own, to put events at work or in an interview into perspective and not turn toxic. I've helped interview managers, but I have never helped plan the interview as a whole, so I don't know what reasonable limits are.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, defending 'being a n asshole' is hard to do.

Wait I'm an asshole? For being upset that treating taxi drivers "as a human being" is considered a positive interaction instead of the absolute bare minimum of a respectful member of society?

1. Neither I nor anyone else in this thread has accused you of being an asshole.

2. Have you interacted with many human beings?

We'd all love it if being treated as a human being were the bare minimum, but quite a few people didn't get the memo and fall quite a bit below it. You really do want to filter out those folks in your hiring process. Unfortunately, here on HN, some commenters view any sort of hiring filter, much less one like "don't be an asshole", as a personal attack.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#567
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was before Facebook broke the SV no-poaching ring, so the offer probably wasn’t that spectacular. Also, in 2006-2010 any RSU’s would be rather horizontal.

I don't know why people think that the SV no-poaching thing really had a large effect on people hired at Google when it was active. It didn't. I don't know what "horizontal" RSUs are, but they were options back then, and every year, you got a bigger (more value) pile of them. My total comp doubled without me getting a promotion in roughly 5 years.

The stock moved horizontally during that time.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait I'm an asshole? For being upset that treating taxi drivers "as a human being" is considered a positive interaction instead of the absolute bare minimum of a respectful member of society?

1. Neither I nor anyone else in this thread has accused you of being an asshole. 2. Have you interacted with many human beings? We'd all love it if being treated as a human being were the bare minimum, but quite a few people didn't get the memo and fall quite a bit below it. You really do want to filter out those folks in your hiring process. Unfortunately, here on HN, some commenters view any sort of hiring filter,…

1. Apologies, the posts you replied to were shitting on me so I misinterpreted your comment as agreeing with them. ("you must be fun ~~at parties~~ in taxis" is a common dismissal + insult online)

2. Yeah... You're not wrong.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I'm just sad that treating someone like a human being is considered a positive and not... you know... the absolute bare minimum someone could do.

I'm just sad that treating someone like a human being is considered a positive Sure. Everyone should be sad about that. There are plenty of people out there who don't have any willingness to treat people in service jobs like driving a taxi with any sort of humanity. Too many people will just ignore the fact that these people are living, breathing human beings with feelings of their own, and treat them as if either th…

> It's quite a high bar apparently, and a lot of people out there don't manage it.

It's not a high bar. There's just a surprising number of people that are really good at playing limbo.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You catch more flys with sugar than with vinegar.

Weirdly enough, not true for flies. They love vinegar.

Apple cider vinegar with a teaspoon of liquid soap is my favorite recipe for drowning fruit flies.
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