Live data from Hacker News

Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

signal.org

561–570 of 618 posts

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#561
post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the fentanyl death rate or trafficking of underage girls harmless?

The fentanyl death rate is almost exclusively an outgrowth of US drug policy. Compare US and Swiss rates of OD’s for some perspective.

Is the drug policy really the issue here? Singapore is so against various consumables you get jailed for vaping (nicotine). You are assuming its policy, but its more likely drug culture.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#562
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the fentanyl death rate or trafficking of underage girls harmless?

The trafficking of underage girls (and the trafficking of adults, for that matter) is a crime in and of itself, not because of what they are being trafficked to do, and it's a shockingly immoral misattribution of blame to say that the problem with trafficking is the crime of prostitution being "committed" by the victims of trafficking. (Analogously, this is why law enforcement professionals and the like have been mov…

I made that point to say that drugs and prostitution definitely have victims and are not victimless. I could bring up STDs, robberies and killings due to drugs as well, its possible to fight trafficking without criminalizing it, but its not likely to happen nor would a moving target of decriminmalizing actions they do be a realistic goal.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the fentanyl death rate or trafficking of underage girls harmless?

If you're killing yourself with drugs in private, it's on you. Despicable choice for sure, and it sucks if a bad environment drove you down this road - but that's on you: don't make me pay for your healthcare. Trafficking underage girls is obviously a crime against another human being, it's not a victimless crime like drugs and should be punished.

Should this not also apply to unhealthy eating? How do you feel about:

If you're killing yourself with unhealthy eating in private, it's on you. Despicable choice for sure, and it sucks if a bad environment drove you down this road - but that's on you: don't make me pay for your healthcare.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes extra effort to design a system with this little amount of data. Note that we only have Signal's word for some of this; they could in fact log every single time that you login, which would make the amount of data sent to the FBI much larger (and could be of importance to the case, for example, if the defendant had a dedicated Signal account for the crime that they only logged into at certain times). Then the…

> they could in fact log every single time that you login, which would make the amount of data sent to the FBI much larger I guess you mean each time you connected to their server to retrieve messages? There is no "login" step, Signal doesn't have a log in process. Presumably a typical Signal client calls several times per day. The record they provided says connection date and despite being supplied in milliseconds s…

> Signal doesn't know who sent messages among close friends, and optionally not anybody who sent messages to a sensitive account.

I am aware of this, and I had split my comment into "extra things Signal could log" and "Extra things most other E2EE services could log" but somehow lost the divider between the two during editing.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#566

While I applaud Signal's response I expect this entire event (subpoena and response) will be provided as one of the exhibits to congress by the Department of Justice to justify their request that it be unlawful to provide such services. The DoJ will say, "See, here is this horrible crime we are investigating and because this company chose to make it impossible for law enforcement, with a warrant and a subpoena to get…

"Do you have no other way of investigating these criminals?" "Could you not put an officer out to surveille them?", Your argument kind of falls on itself there --> We can surveil them in person, but not digitally? Why? I think the tech crowd has this wrong. The issue - as you have indicated - is not 'By What Means To Surveil'. The issues are: Legitimacy, Proportionality, Oversight. Messages, tech, sign language, in p…

> Should the police be able to access the Signal messages of someone they apprehended at a murder scene wherein other suspects fled the scene, and are therefore likely the suspects accomplices?

I believe under those circumstances, the police should be able to apply to a judge for a warrant, and if probable cause is found and a warrant is issued, attempt to access the Signal messages of such a person. A requirement that they succeed has technological implications; Signal, the device, or both would have to contain a backdoor, or use security measures that are not very effective.

I am an absolutist on this question; I don't think governments should have the authority to mandate backdoors in products or services even if doing so would result in the prosecution of many criminals who otherwise go unpunished. For those who want to balance the government's interest in prosecuting criminals against secure and private communications, the question I would ask is: how often do investigations or prosecutions fail because it was impossible to access encrypted data with a court order? A precise answer might be difficult since the content of the encrypted data is unknowable, but an upper bound could be established by assuming such encrypted data is always incriminating.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech is such a bizarre thing in USA. I understand citizens need the right to voice their opinion without fear of government repression; but citizens shouldn't believe they have the right to insult and behave antisocially to other citizens. Any kind of white supremacist behavior is not something to be treasured as freedom, because that enables their harmful behavior against other citizens.

Maybe try thinking about it for a moment instead of resorting to the boring heuristic of assuming Americans are dumb zealots treasuring rights because they are brainwashed. People like you need to stop saying things like "I understand citizens need the right to voice their opinion without fear of government repression" because this is exactly the opposite of what you want. You want views that you consider objectionab…

You misunderstood me. The government should not censor speech because governments tend to authoritarianism, but civil organizations also shouldn't support neonazis when they exert their freedom of speech against other citizens.

TL;DR: The government must not censor freedom, and citizens should not support acts of oppressions disguised as civil rights.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're killing yourself with drugs in private, it's on you. Despicable choice for sure, and it sucks if a bad environment drove you down this road - but that's on you: don't make me pay for your healthcare. Trafficking underage girls is obviously a crime against another human being, it's not a victimless crime like drugs and should be punished.

Should this not also apply to unhealthy eating? How do you feel about: If you're killing yourself with unhealthy eating in private, it's on you. Despicable choice for sure, and it sucks if a bad environment drove you down this road - but that's on you: don't make me pay for your healthcare.

I think it's a fairly well-understood causal inference problem to figure out how much effort (money) needs to be spent on other people for GDP growth from that one person to offset the money spent on them by society.

We just need someone to step up and collect the data.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#569
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is, what do you do when they gain power?

Counter their arguments better so they don’t.

The core problem here is that our technology for discourse is basically twitter and "voting with likes". The algorithms are optimized for attention and likes, so the mob wins - not the best argument.

IF we fixed THAT problem (with new technology, an early one is https://www.kialo.com/tour, but it's not good enough), we can have what you want.

Right now, we're effectively the same tech level as the 1900s (perhaps in a more dangerous way) w.r.t finding truth or the "right" arguments

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#570
post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fentanyl death rate is almost exclusively an outgrowth of US drug policy. Compare US and Swiss rates of OD’s for some perspective.

Is the drug policy really the issue here? Singapore is so against various consumables you get jailed for vaping (nicotine). You are assuming its policy, but its more likely drug culture.

Drug policy isn’t simply binary do X or Y, it’s a system that can work or fail. Singapore’s policy drastically reduced consumption, thus it was effective just as Sweden’s policy was. US drug policy on the other hand has failed to see similar results and thus it failed.
Post reply on HN