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Bitcoin is a Ponzi

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561–570 of 684 posts

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scroll down to the bar chart showing the country rankings. Look at the top 3 countries (China, US, India). Compare those to Bitcoin... can you honestly tell me that Bitcoin constitutes a significant amount of energy consumption in that context? And it's also worth noting that energy consumption isn't necessarily bad for climate change. You're conflating "energy consumption" with "CO2 emissions". It's CO2 emissions th…

America, India, and China? Those are fully functioning, massive economies that power the entire world and have people commuting, working, eating, farming, manufacturing, and doing all the normal processes that life entails. Are you saying we should compare a digital coin with very niche usage to the collective impact of all of those actions taking place in the most massively populated and economically significant nat…

Before addressing this comment I want to pick up a point from your previous post.

>But say you want to flip a switch and turn off a single cryptocurrency in order to do it, and you'll have floods of people trivializing it, saying "well, let me tell you why 110 million people's CO2 emissions aren't that big of a deal..."

Well, with Bitcoin, you can't "flip a switch" to turn it off. There's literally no one on the planet with that power, which is kind of the point. As long as people see value in the asset and the network, it will always be there.

Moving onto your latest post, everything you said depends entirely on whether you believe the value proposition of Bitcoin separating money and state.

As said by Satoshi Nakamoto, "The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts. Their massive overhead costs make micropayments impossible."

It's worth a lot to me and many other people not to see their wealth melted away by inflation, which is basically a hidden tax that disproportionally effects the people at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. And that's just one use case for it (i.e. store of value). There are other important features of Bitcoin that people value.

A sound money with decreasing inflation, absolute scarcity, that is difficult (if not impossible) to manipulate is very valuable to ~8 billion people on this planet. At the moment only a small percent of people understand that (maybe hundreds of millions?), but that may change over the coming decades.

Looked at it in that way, it's current energy expenditure is incredibly small and for the amount of wealth it secures and transfer globally... also incredibly efficient.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#562
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do not pretend making your money work for you by some magical scheme. No. They instead take your money, buy coal, and burn it. Nothing is left. As you say, Ponzi schemers take money for themselves and keep it. Most of what Madoff stole was recovered, for instance. Whereas virtually 100% of all money invested into crypto has been burned by miners. This is pretty easy to model. So there’s nothing left to recover…

> Whereas virtually 100% of all money invested into crypto has been burned by miners. This is pretty easy to model. People like Bitcoin's provable global ledger and this is where the value lies. The value is not burned, it's embedded into this ledger.

> People like Bitcoin's provable global ledger and this is where the value lies. The value is not burned, it's embedded into this ledger.

Aren't you just stating that Bitcoin has absolutely no intrinsic value?

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#563

In a Ponzi scheme, a fraudulent perpetrator takes your money (and the money of many others), gives some of that to early dropouts but takes the rest for himself . Ponzi schemers profit from lying to you where your money goes. With a decentralized digital asset there is no sole person or company that profits from just lying to you about where your Dollar goes in exchange for digitals. Sure, miners and exchanges make p…

You do realise digital assets have to be created right? Your entire statement is wrong. I'm surprised you managed to write so much without realising how wrong it is. Sounds like you don't know what digital assets are, or what a ponzi scheme is. Trading cards are ponzi schemes too. From an entertainment point of view, they are created for the purpose of being fun to trade. From a monetary point of view, they are a pon…

> Trading cards are ponzi schemes too. From an entertainment point of view, they are created for the purpose of being fun to trade.

No, not really. You're confusing the concept of intrinsic vs perceived value, and completely ignoring the concept of utility.

People who buy cards for fun do it because it's fun, just like we could spend money to rent a sports car, go on a vacation, or drive around a test track. The monetary value of a hotel say from last month is zero, but that does not make hotels any type of fraud.

What would represent a Ponzi scheme would be, say, advertising Beany Babies as a safe and guaranteed investment to attract speculators, sell them Beany Babies for a hefty markup, and proceed to leave them holding the bag.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To begin with, let me say I'm very sorry this happened to you, and I think it sounds like an example of a really broken system. This should never happen to someone randomly, and I think you should have been compensated a lot for the troubles and stress it must have caused you. However, I think we should be careful with drawing the conclusion that technology for circumventing our institutions' ability to regulate alto…

Calling that control “democratic” is a bit of a stretch. Plus, anonymous physical cash transactions have been the status quo forever

The institutions ought to be under democratic control in the sense that they are regulated by elected representatives. If they are not, then that is a big problem which should be fixed rather than circumventing the institutions altogether.

Physical cash is de facto restricted in many places in the form of upper bounds on the amounts that one can withdraw and deposit.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#565
post #104
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

George Soros would like a word. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

The fact that you can name notable exceptions is only reinforces the general rule

It's a 6 trillion dollar a day market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#566
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the act of attempting to leave the country They aren't going to immediately execute everyone who is crossing the border. Even in authoritarian regimes, some people may be able to leave, and borders are not completely shutdown. And in that situation, for those people, it is useful to be able to carry money, in a way where they do not know that you have it.

I mean sure, some people make it out of North Korea. A lot are publicly executed to be made an example of too. I think you fail to understand the power of a true authoritarian government, particularly if they can monitor and limit your access to the outside world. * Use a VPN, you're guilty of Treason. * Use a currency other than the North Korean won, you're guilty of treason. * Use an electronic device other than st…

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To begin with, let me say I'm very sorry this happened to you, and I think it sounds like an example of a really broken system. This should never happen to someone randomly, and I think you should have been compensated a lot for the troubles and stress it must have caused you. However, I think we should be careful with drawing the conclusion that technology for circumventing our institutions' ability to regulate alto…

Everybody should be allowed to transact. While transactions can be results of crimes, transactions are not crimes themselves. Governments should stop crimes that may lead to transactions, not transactions.

I don't think that's true. Isn't a transfer of money to a terrorist organization an act of crime, for example?

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#568
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of these same arguments apply to gold. Do you think gold is (mostly) useless today? If yes, when did it stop becoming useful? Do you think it was always useless?

When you mine gold, you get gold, and gold is nice. If we could magically make 100x the gold, that would be great! Current gold investors would be sad but it would be a win for the world. Bitcoin mining produces heat, and maintains the bitcoin network. It doesn’t actually increase the supply of anything: the total number of bitcoins is arbitrary. The real value is whatever the network produces (happiness in its hodle…

> If we could magically make 100x the gold, that would be great! Current gold investors would be sad but it would be a win for the world.

I am not sure about that. If there were a magical new way of creating gold to inflate its supply, it would not be good for the world.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#569
post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

The fees for Bitcoin are way too high to make sense for citizens in poor authoritarian counties. The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network. And the lightning network is a poor solution to this because the LN requires a lot of capital to fund channels, something poor people explicitly don't have. Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have…

>Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have to point to poor authoritarian countries to find legitimate usecases is telling in and of itself. It's basically a blunt admission that the technology is mostly useless in the US.

You say that as though it makes it all but useless, despite the value it provides to people in those countries... that's very telling in itself.

But as I said there are many use cases, I just pointed out a few that I thought were most important on a global scale... because, you know, it's not all about people in wealthy developed nations.

But outside of those types of countries, and in countries like the US, the self-serving use case is a hedge against inflation. If inflation doesn't worry you, that's ok, but the recent money printing in trillions of dollars worries lots of other people. In 20 years I've seen the purchasing power of my money halved. I'm much happier to store my money in an asset that, so far, is seeing its purchasing power increase year on year.

From a technical standpoint the other use case, over the lightning network (and other layers and sidechains), is that it allows for instant micro-payments not possible with the legacy financial system. People are building products like podcast platforms which stream satoshis to content creators for every minute someone listens to their podcast. Others are building systems where every API call can be instantly billed. Or content distribution systems (think Bittorrent) where seeders can be compensated for service.

There are plenty of technical uses cases for a digital native money on the internet.

If you don't understand why it has utility I don't think there's anything more I can say to convince you. Sorry.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#570
post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. They instead take your money, buy coal, and burn it. Nothing is left. Interesting, I never thought of it that way, and it makes sense. Since money is not created or destroyed the balance sheet on inflows and outflows of BTC to dollars must be zero at all times. And some x% (which is variable) of it is transferred to miners which is the so-called "transaction" cost. I guess there must be a point at which the bub…

If you're so certain short it. The amount of wealth you would gain by being correct is immense. You should be spending every waking moment attempting to predict it. Something about anti btcers I don't get you'll wax how smart you are and how everyone else is dumb. Just put your money where your mouth is.

"Markets can remain irrational a lot longer than you and I can remain solvent." -- A. Gary Shilling
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