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Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

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Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#561

Post by fennecfoxy »

murgindrag wrote: post #85
nmca wrote: post #42

In the long term, the ethically right answer seems pretty clearly to me to be a land value tax [0]. But due to encouragement of home ownership [1], that's not going to democratically tenable in a lot of countries for 20+ years. Unfortunate situation. [0] In 1879, a man asked "How come all this new economic development and industrialized technology hasn't eliminated poverty and oppression?" That man was Henry George,…

I'm not sold on the Economist article. I do believe in home ownership. The idea that a person spends a lifetime in the same home and community is a good one. We're tribal creatures, and you want a tribe -- you want people to know their neighbors, have community BBQs, and live in real communities. You want enough of a vested interest in municipal politics that democratic structures work. You want kids growing up with…

Ownership is important, it's a personal investment. For millenials all of our money is going to the boomers etc we rent from, those of which who do own property (because I know many of them don't) make it big on buying when house prices were actually reasonable, then downsize their house in London and get a nice big house build in Spain to retire to.

When millenials reach retirement age, a house, as for all previous generations, is the best option for financial security for retirement/end of life. Fewer and fewer of us will have that option I think.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#562

Post by pydry »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #401
pydry wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renters would pay the same rents they do now. For some landlords that would cover their tax bill. Others not so much. It would precipitate a collapse in property values, but not a rise in rents.

I must sincerely ask you if you read my original comment and the person I am replying to: As population density increases, desirability increases, and people may try investing with the goal of renting, which with an LVT will more sharply decrease the desirability of population density. An LVT can incentivize sprawl because all else equal the LVT would ultimately be passed on to renters.

>people may try investing with the goal of renting, which with an LVT will more sharply decrease the desirability of population density.

I dont see how that follows - you stated it but did not explain the mechanism by which it happens.

Population density would flow from the land value as it does now, albeit more efficiently since inefficiently used land would not just mean minimized profits but large losses.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#563

Post by mxmilkiib »

laurent92 wrote: post #444
sideshowb wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusing you equate democracy with the English vote. Sincerely, Scotland, Wales and NI

I’m equating democracy with listening to the most numerous. You have been thoroughly defeated with 3 blatant-majority votes in 4 years. If you don’t like it, you were never in favour of democracy, and if you are not in solidarity with your English mates, tell me about solidarity with an entire continent. Name a single country that succeeded to leave EU without retaliation from said EU and I’ll eat my hat. EU is not a…

That's isn't just one kind of democracy.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#564

Post by firecall »

errantmind wrote: post #542
silexia wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a housing investor, but I see many misguided articles claiming housing investors are driving prices up. The factors that primarily control pricing in the housing market are supply and demand. In Seattle, London, Los Angeles and elsewhere demand has risen steadily but supply has not. This causes prices to increase sharply. The solution is to increase the housing supply. If the government removes regulations p…

While this is true for supply, the same can be said about demand. Foreign investors drive prices up by seeing some other county's housing as an investment. If taxes were increased for these investors, or some other disincentive was in place, demand would fall driving prices down

This was certainly true in Australia. Where Chinese investors would get their money out of China and into Aussie real estate!

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#565

Post by mmarq »

makomk wrote: post #559
mmarq wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that the idea EU immigration was driving down wages was a cynical lie It was a lie, EU citizens in the UK earn significantly more than the locals. If I wanted to be a member of the underclass, say a cleaner, I’d be in Germany, where I wouldn't have to pay 6K£ for pregnancy and 12K£pa to send a child to a half-decent primary school.

The thing is, from what I can tell the migrant workers doing these kinds of poorly-paid jobs didn't have to worry about the cost of pregnancy or sending kids to a half-decent primary school because their families weren't actually living here - they came over, worked, and sent money back home to their families in their home countries with lower cost of living. It's that which made it possible for them to work for less…

I am not saying that the set of poor Europeans living in the UK is empty, nor I’m saying that no grocer in the UK ever hired a Spaniard or a Frenchman for 11.1£ per hour while a local would have cost 11.6£ per hour, or whatever the poor earn in the UK, but that’s not a social phenomenon, it’s a guy, it’s at best an anecdote. Similarly EU citizens living under bridges to send remittances home, is not a social phenomenon in the UK, it’s a Brexit myth. You can check the data yourself. Again, you may know a guy that…, but that’s an anecdote. The mythological poor EU citizen that goes abroad to send money home and live in a rathole with 17 other poor souls, assuming it exist, is way better off going to Germany than to the UK. On a side note, remittances from Germany are 2.5 times those from the UK, from France 1.5.

EU citizens living in the UK on average earn a lot more than the locals and are better qualified. So saying that migration from the EU was driving down wages was indeed a lie.

But even if we assume that the UK had been swarmed by millions of illiterate cretins, there isn’t any evidence anywhere in the world that immigration suppresses wages permanently (there may be some temporary short term effects, but before, you say anything, the UK has been in the EU for decades, so we are indeed in the long run).

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#566

Post by polskibus »

firecall wrote: post #543
silexia wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a housing investor, but I see many misguided articles claiming housing investors are driving prices up. The factors that primarily control pricing in the housing market are supply and demand. In Seattle, London, Los Angeles and elsewhere demand has risen steadily but supply has not. This causes prices to increase sharply. The solution is to increase the housing supply. If the government removes regulations p…

Exactly! Here in Australia we are seeing remarkable growth in property prices over the last quarter! Sydney prices grew at $AU1200 per day! In the residential housing market there just isn’t enough supply! I can say anecdotally that’s younger buyers are being accompanied by their parents, who are assisting with finance. Its well observed that people are queuing down the street to inspect properties, and literally wri…

It's trying to run away from inflation. USA and others have been printing outrageous amount of money, huge inflation is coming, sometimes it's already there. Solution is not to build more homes ad infinitum, but to curb the printing and get back to responsible fiscal policy without bailouts.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#567

Post by murgindrag »

rhacker wrote: post #414
murgindrag wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sold on the Economist article. I do believe in home ownership. The idea that a person spends a lifetime in the same home and community is a good one. We're tribal creatures, and you want a tribe -- you want people to know their neighbors, have community BBQs, and live in real communities. You want enough of a vested interest in municipal politics that democratic structures work. You want kids growing up with…

To be 100% completely honest, home building needs to be one of our basic skills taught in school. That along with chopping down the building codes for small homes to be extremely simple. I'm not saying we support shanty homes everywhere, but the problem we have is that investors are buying up all the perfect homes and most homes are perfect homes. Maybe we should have less than perfect homes that aren't valued so hig…

This is incredibly true.

Homes don't even need to be that small. Buying a chunk of land with enough trees to build a home is You need the equivalent of a Ph.D in zoning, permitting, and municipal regulations to do that, though.

And if each high school class, as a year-long class project, build a home, I think my kid would get a better education and we'd have more homes.

Plus, most people need to bring in specialists to do all the maintenance because we have no idea how our homes work. I'd like to run ethernet in my house, and I have no idea what's inside my walls, how to get in there, or how not to break things. That's embarrassing.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#568

Post by llampx »

rtpg wrote: post #180
csomar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Let's fix a housing crisis by completely breaking up laws, society and order.

Let’s fix a housing crisis by having houses be used. I doubt this is the magical unique problem everyone claims it is, but “oh no think of people’s investment” when people are sleeping outside is valuing property over people.

So would you say the same applies for property which is being underutilized? Throw out the rich people living in 5 bedroom houses? Throw out the grandmas living in the house they once had a family and children in? Mandate minimum number of persons per square foot?

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#569

Post by llampx »

imtringued wrote: post #405
Yaa101 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had housing cooperation's for a century until they were forced by consecutive right wing governments to sell their houses, and thus ruining a system that was well working, except for rich friends of the right wing government to speculate with the housing system, which is taking place now.

One of the dumbest things to do with government owned land is to sell it. You get a quick injection of cash and then the money runs out just as quickly. Meanwhile the land keeps going up in value forcing the government to subsidize housing for low income earners. If the government kept the land it could lease it out at reasonable rates and have an ongoing income stream.

Shades of Berlin here. They sold land and buildings for very cheap to big companies like Deutsche Wohnen, and now there is a vote to buy back the properties at red-hot market prices and give people cheaper rent. Lose-lose in every way for the Berlin taxpayer.

Re: Dutch cities want to ban property investors in all neighborhoods

#570

Post by silexia »

firecall wrote: post #564
errantmind wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true for supply, the same can be said about demand. Foreign investors drive prices up by seeing some other county's housing as an investment. If taxes were increased for these investors, or some other disincentive was in place, demand would fall driving prices down

This was certainly true in Australia. Where Chinese investors would get their money out of China and into Aussie real estate!

Investors don't park money in an asset where supply is increasing dramatically.
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