Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

adamcadre.ac

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

561–570 of 764 posts

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#561

Post by hutzlibu »

hypnoscripto wrote: post #535
throwaway894345 wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who thinks “we should pay teachers more so they can afford a new profession because public education is horrible” is the wrong takeaway? Like, why not fix public education (e.g., more teacher autonomy) or at least support some voucher program so more teachers can be private school teachers?

See my reply above. I didn’t think this idea would be controversial. Working conditions should improve when the workers have other options.

"Working conditions should improve when the workers have other options."

So when the workers have not other options, working conditions can stay low?

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#562

Post by dr_dshiv »

6f8986c3 wrote: post #364
thundergolfer wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the first quote, it’s not the opposite of what you’d expect if teaching was a low-status profession that could only attract weaker, lower paid labourers. Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. If teaching is low-status it is no wonder that education standards are low and thus educational ac…

> Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. As a teacher, you have no control over your classroom. Disruptive students that destroy everybody else's learning environment? Too bad. No Child Left Behind! Wait, that's the old slogan, w…

I am curious whether there are any systems that let parents choose teachers within a school — and let teachers admit students they will take. So they can make more if they are in demand — and that students that are "problems" will result in greater income for the teachers that take them.

A kind of "choice-based" market system within a school.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#563

Post by lalaland1125 »

spoonjim wrote: post #554

I’ve noticed that in the time since I was a kid, the focus of public school has shifted from about the 40th percentile student to the 5th percentile student. In my school, the entire focus of the operation was the decent student... the one who showed up, put in a decent effort, did at least three quarters of their homework. The school had tremendous resources for these kids to go to college, and the very best college…

This was the explicit and intended result of No Child Left Behind.

Schools were only given incentives to make kids pass, not to help them excel.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#564

Post by hutzlibu »

idiotsecant wrote: post #381
otterley wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution is this: Ban anyone without a minimum teaching experience of x years from participating on boards, bring all teacher salaries up to comfortable middle-class in every district and give them back their authority in the classroom. "There is always a well-known solution to every human problem—neat, plausible, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken

Its refreshing that there is somewhere left on the internet where someone can point out that a problem might have nuance and not get immediately down voted to oblivion. HN is great.

"HN is great."

In nuances ...

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#565

Post by lostdog »

mlyle wrote: post #506
giantg2 wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Part of offering better salaries is also being able to be more selective with who you keep." If you are a private school, sure. This is not the case for unionized public schools. Did you hear of that famous case where a superintendent fired multiple teachers for abysmal performance and even abusive behavior and was forced by the courts/union to reinstate them with back pay? It's very eye opening.

Oddly enough, private schools can pay a fair bit less. At a private school, you get to avoid most of the disruption, have smaller class sizes, and teach brighter students on average. If you're passionate about what you're teaching, these are things you may value more than salary, so...

Private schools also have fewer hiring restrictions, which lets them lower salaries. I know a couple people who did not get the qualifications to work at a public school, and now teach at private schools. (Not for lack of ability, by the way).

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#566

Post by Thorrez »

Jare wrote: post #553
brightball wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this drives the push for things like vouchers. I’m lucky to be able to send my kids to a good private school. We chose it after a tour and discussion with the headmaster about exactly how it operates. The teachers as a group research and plan curriculum. They coordinate across grade levels and determine how to roll out changes in the most effective way possible for students and parents as well. They rolled…

Vouchers add power to parents, and we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem. Even worse: unlike policies, standards, regulations, boards, administrations, and rules, you can't change parents. Even worst: you can manipulate parents, and perverse incentives all but guarantee that evil people will be attracted to this opportunity.

>we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem

I'd be interested in seeing data showing this.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#567

Post by Tade0 »

contrarian_5 wrote: post #512

very frequent topic here on HN. i remember a comment about a persons experience with the public schools in the soviet union when it collapsed. all the smart people pulled their kids out and did something else. its the same as everything else because if you want it to be done right then you have to do it yourself. there is no fixing public schools... they are run by the majority and they always will be. the problem is…

I went to a public school in a post-communist country in the second half of the 90s.

Back then private schools were generally regarded as lower quality because of the incentive to keep the parents happy with their "educational product".

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#568

Post by Tade0 »

contrarian_5 wrote: post #515
newacct583 wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has happened to this site? We have a topic on the front page of the site for 15 hours now, with almost 400 comments, and the top comment is a nakedly eugenicist screed about "the dumbest people" having too many babies. I mean, even skipping the moral horror here, it's not even true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect But HN... wants it to be true? What the actual fuck, people?

ive been here since 2014. i didnt bring up eugenics, but if you want to broach that topic then fine. intelligence, as well as all other traits or characteristics, of not just humans but all organisms, is subject to natural selection. if you deny this, you deny natural selection and this would make you a science denier. whether we should act on this fact, or the morality of doing so, is completely up to you. but you w…

The established science is that at least half of our intelligence is a product of the environment.

Otherwise we wouldn't have so-called feral children - people who never acquired language and thus their intellectual growth was hindered.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#569

Post by [deleted] »

verisimilidude wrote: post #225
mindvirus wrote: post #64

One of the most radical beliefs I have is we should get rid of private schools, because it lets the people most capable of forcing change to opt out of an increasingly broken system, and so it doesn't get fixed. Of course I say this as I seriously consider sending my kids to a private school because of articles like this.

You’re describing Finland. They outlawed private school funding for exactly the reason you’re proposing: to get the wealthiest and most engaged parents invested in fixing public schools for all. It worked. They have one of the best public education systems in the world.

[deleted]

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#570

Post by sbierwagen »

brandmeyer wrote: post #6
underseacables wrote: post #4

This is sad. It reads more as though teachers and school employees are doing whatever they can to keep/justify their jobs, but not to improve learning. It is almost as if a teachers first job is self-preservation. If students can’t pass the test, then the test must be made easier, that way more students can pass and the teacher doesn’t look bad.

That's an incentive alignment problem. It is the responsibility of management (state and district admin) to ensure that what is best for the teacher's career is also what is best for student education.

What evidence do you have that management cares about student education?
Post reply on HN