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Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

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Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#561
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.

An Italian friend of mine, when struggling to find the word for a Satellite Dish, called it a parabola. I was very impressed.

Other Latins might not have been so impressed. This is exactly what we call it in Portuguese: a parabolic antenna (antena parabólica).

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't really use "periphery" for the circumference in Greek, we use "perimeter". Periphery refers to something outside the object you're describing, whereas perimeter is right at the edge of the object, but usually belonging to it.

... and I've forgotten how to speak Greek :( I've lived in the UK for the last 15 years. I even think in English, these days.

I've lived in Greece for the last 40 years and even I think in English (when I think in language).

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and I've forgotten how to speak Greek :( I've lived in the UK for the last 15 years. I even think in English, these days.

I've lived in Greece for the last 40 years and even I think in English (when I think in language).

For me it's to do with work. I think of work all the time and I find it difficult to think of it in Greek. So I end up thinking about work, in English, all the time.

The problem is that I keep forgetting Greek words and I find myself using English expressions even when I speak in Greek, even when I'm not speaking about work. And then I start saying things I'd never say in either language. I'm particularly shocked when I make blunders like "περιφέρεια του κύκλου". I just hope it's too early for early Alzheimer's.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Greece for the last 40 years and even I think in English (when I think in language).

For me it's to do with work. I think of work all the time and I find it difficult to think of it in Greek. So I end up thinking about work, in English, all the time. The problem is that I keep forgetting Greek words and I find myself using English expressions even when I speak in Greek, even when I'm not speaking about work. And then I start saying things I'd never say in either language. I'm particularly shocked whe…

Oh don't worry, this happens to me all the time too. It seems to be normal.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#565
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds more natural Weeeell, there's more to it than that. English has a rich vocabulary, why not use it? Just like there is more to a palette than primary colors, why restrict yourself? Me, I enjoy using "five dollar words" where they fit, I also enjoy inserting slang, obscure puns, deliberate misspellings, foreign words, all to add some texture and color. Wakarimasu ka? My father was felled by Alzheimers. What…

Much worse than using high-falutin' vocabulary (I might sometimes take advantage of 'utilise' myself) is using high-falutin' grammatical constructions AND USING THEM WRONGLY. Which takes us back nicely to the OP: > "Having lived in the U.K., I know many whose first (and only) language is English and who make routine errors when speaking and many more when writing," says Madani. The latest horror is people trying to u…

*highfalutin (without apostrophe)

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#566
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Italian-American who rarely gets to speak Italian, my visits to my family in Italy are full of these kinds of things, but in the other direction, naturally. I end up using less common, typically larger words mostly because they have direct equivalents in English, including a whole bunch that end in -ation, which in Italian typically end in -azione. My relatives joke with me that I'm a weird, overeducated dummy…

No worries, Feynman used such a word in Portuguese when he did not know the short, common one and it was a great success. I do not remember the word anymore, it was in You Must Be Jocking, Mr Feynman. - in the party where he was teaching in Brazil

I read that book when I was an English-monolingual kid, living in Portugal, and /consequentemente/ that story really stuck in my head when I was struggling for Portuguese words: https://southerncrossreview.org/81/feynman-brazil.html

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Part of why English got so popular is that on grammar level it's really simpler than most other languages. I've heard this said often but I don't believe it. For one thing, ancient Greek was once the lingua franca around the Mediterranean (e.g. the New Testament was written in Greek koine) and it's hard enough to this native Greek speaker, so at the very least a language being easy or hard doesn't have much to do…

There is actual research in the domain of language complexity! (Which, to be fair, is still a somewhat more niche topic in linguistics) What little I know of it does suggest a couple of things (but my knowledge might be slightly outdated): - It's true that no language is fundamentally unlearnable, not even as an adult (although you can of course always debate what "fluency" means exactly - to this date, I'm fairly ce…

> There is actual research in the domain of language complexity! (Which, to be fair, is still a somewhat more niche topic in linguistics)

I know little about this as well, but there’s been some research done by…… John McWhorter, I think? A quick search through my Big List of Things to Read (3000 articles and counting!) gives https://elementy.ru/downloads/elt/mcwhorter_creole_grammars.... and https://benjamins.com/catalog/slcs.71, which you may want to have a look at if you’re interested. David Gil is also well-known for his insistence that Riau Indonesian is simpler than most other non-creole languages.

> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Ah yes, this one. I remember carefully reading it a while ago, and I ended up very sceptical about its conclusions. For one thing, I don’t agree with rankings such as ‘Isolating > Concatenating’ and ‘Agent > Agent & Patient’ (though these do admittedly seem to be common assumptions). The ranking as a whole is a bit weird also — I’d love to know how they concluded that Tiwi is less complex than Dyirbal, for example. But I’m more suspicious of the linear fits, which appear extremely bad — I’m not convinced you can conclude anything from a fit of R²=8.9% (for Afro-Asiatic) or R²=14.1% (for Sino–Tibetan). In fact, only one of the graphs has R²>90% at all. And I note that they very carefully avoid giving p-values — except for the overall ‘complexity against population’ graph, a very significant correlation which however disappears when languages are split into groups by family (Simpson’s Paradox again?).

(Though keep in mind that I’m not great at statistics and any of the above could be incorrect.)

Also, they rely entirely on WALS, which isn’t a great source of linguistic data. It’s good for other things, but I very regularly find that a good proportion of its data is incorrect. It’s fine if you want to, say, see roughly what proportion of languages use active–stative alignment, but not for much else. (Though I suppose you could argue that the CLT applies and the errors will cancel out. But as I said, I’m bad at statistics and wouldn’t know how correct this is.)

(Personally, I’m sceptical that there’s a link between complexity and population. Witness Swahili, the lingua franca of a good chunk of East Africa. Or Quechua, the language of the Inca Empire. The main reason most widely-spoken languages are ‘simpler’ is that they disproportionally come from IE, ST and Austronesian, which aren’t the most morphologically complex families anyway.)

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#568
post #565
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much worse than using high-falutin' vocabulary (I might sometimes take advantage of 'utilise' myself) is using high-falutin' grammatical constructions AND USING THEM WRONGLY. Which takes us back nicely to the OP: > "Having lived in the U.K., I know many whose first (and only) language is English and who make routine errors when speaking and many more when writing," says Madani. The latest horror is people trying to u…

*highfalutin (without apostrophe)

Dontcha think its awfully “high-falutin’” to correct a man on his grammar in a such as that way?

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#569
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from English, I struggle with when to use я vs Мне.

Not sure if you'd like an advice or merely sharing your experience, but after reading your comment I spent an hour or so trying to provide a simple rule of thumb. To my surprise, I failed miserably. But I scraped some info together in the process, so I'll post it in a hope that it might give you a better perspective. Mind you, I'm not a linguist or a teacher. First of all, I made a list of Russian я/мне lines with En…

Thank you for taking the time to write this. And good point regarding dative case. I should just think in terms of sender/receiver.

Where I especially get mixed up with Russian is when dative and acusitive are in the same sentence. Next up for me is instrumental case - oh boy

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#570
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.

Portuguese sometimes has a strangely literary cadence and the sentence structure tends to formality. It's quite an unusual language - a mix of Romance, Arabic, and a hint of English, which sounds like Russian when spoken. There are also plenty of false friends which confuse native speakers of both languages. That still doesn't explain why someone would say periferia when they meant lado or maybe bordo.

> which sounds like Russian when spoken

Or rather Polish. Both Polish and Portuguese have nasals and sibilants in abundance.

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