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Scrollbar Blindness

svenkadak.com

561–570 of 575 posts

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#561
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might resent the autoscroll on the website, but did you consider that the group chat program also has an infinite scroll, for chat history? Imagine what a hypothetical scrollbar for the group-chat program would look like if it had one, and if that scrollbar actually represented your relative position in a complete timeline going back to when the chat-group was created. :)

Consider that an actual timeline is a better interface for chat history than an infinitely scrolling log.

Genuinely curious: what is the difference? Pagination?

What are some examples of the two approaches?

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#562
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he is saying is, don't buy a cheap-ass Dell that runs Windows 10S, then expect to be development powerhouse where all the hardware works properly. He is suggesting buying a developer-oriented laptop that is designed and supported to be running Linux. You'll have less weird hardware quirks that way.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant - and peripherals too. I'm sure a big reason Apple products don't have problems video calling or connecting to projectors is high-end hardware, and I don't think the difference between MacOS and Ubuntu on comparable hardware is anywhere near as striking as their reputations would have you believe.

I really, highly doubt that. Autodetecting and using proper settings for a newly-discovered display device (projector) is fundamentally a software consideration, not hardware: the hardware into which you connect the display is capable of talking to it (maybe not at ideal resolution depending on specs, but whatever), but the OS needs to discover, detect, and configure the new connection properly.

The same is true for Zoom: things like accelerated video streaming are universally supported on laptop GPUs, but software support is spotty for some apps/OSes. Things like screen sharing are 100% software-side.

While I'd love to use a Linux workstation (and often do), it's simply not there yet in those areas. That has nothing to do with "high-end hardware" and everything to do with less robust software support than many alternatives--including MacOS.

I guess you could make the case that because MacOS has to support fewer kinds of hardware, they can spend more time on making software support robust, but I'm neither convinced of that argument nor convinced that's what you meant by your post.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#563
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still at it??? > You din't, really. On the third attempt you said "I see our testers doing this all the time - but I don't know what libraries they use" and "various people have scripted UI exploits using selenium or appium. I just asked one of the people familiar with those two tools" Because I see this sort of test being done almost daily... I work in security and not specifically in testing. I mentioned wha…

A person who doesn't do testing himself, doesn't know which libraries testers use, and has to ask other people how to solve the problem in OP (because he himself doesn't know) is telling me to stop pontificating and go educate myself. Good luck with your holier than though attitude, and god help your security.

Yikes, you guys. Please don't do flamewars on HN and especially not tit-for-tat spats like this one.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#564
post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A person who doesn't do testing himself, doesn't know which libraries testers use, and has to ask other people how to solve the problem in OP (because he himself doesn't know) is telling me to stop pontificating and go educate myself. Good luck with your holier than though attitude, and god help your security.

What is wrong with you? I never said any of that. You keep cherry picking half-statements and then taking them out of context. I did not need to ask other people how to solve a problem. That is a silly interpretation of what I wrote. You are willfully pretending ignorance of how to read and have a conversation. Pontificate: "express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic." Yes, you really…

Yikes, you guys. Please don't do flamewars on HN and especially not tit-for-tat spats like this one.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#565
post #564
post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with you? I never said any of that. You keep cherry picking half-statements and then taking them out of context. I did not need to ask other people how to solve a problem. That is a silly interpretation of what I wrote. You are willfully pretending ignorance of how to read and have a conversation. Pontificate: "express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic." Yes, you really…

Yikes, you guys. Please don't do flamewars on HN and especially not tit-for-tat spats like this one. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Gotcha! Thanks.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#566
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant - and peripherals too. I'm sure a big reason Apple products don't have problems video calling or connecting to projectors is high-end hardware, and I don't think the difference between MacOS and Ubuntu on comparable hardware is anywhere near as striking as their reputations would have you believe.

I really, highly doubt that. Autodetecting and using proper settings for a newly-discovered display device (projector) is fundamentally a software consideration, not hardware: the hardware into which you connect the display is capable of talking to it (maybe not at ideal resolution depending on specs, but whatever), but the OS needs to discover, detect, and configure the new connection properly. The same is true for…

You'd think that, but once I replaced my €5 AliExpress connector cable by a proper one, suddenly I haven't had any issues with projectors any more.

Likewise, if you use an underpowered laptop, or one for which Ubuntu doesn't have proper drivers, you're going to have a hard time using Zoom.

I'm not saying that you'll never have issues (which I'm sure holds for MacOS as well), or even that you might not have slightly more issues than on MacOS (see your last paragraph), but things are definitely not as bad as comments online would have you believe, because many of those can be ascribed to issues like I mentioned above.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#567
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? Infinite scroll is usually just a direct translation of SQL cursor semantics into the frontend. And an SQL cursor (or its equivalent for a disstributed store) is an optimal choice for a situation where: 1. there's a potentially-huge result set; 2. almost nobody ever wants to see the whole result set, but rather almost always just wants to see the first N chunks, and then drops off; 3. the results are sourced from…

That excuse doesn't work at all, and you even provided the counterexample yourself. If you know the data fits on one screen, which you know very quickly , skip the scrollbar. If you don't know, add one. All you need from API is an indication of whether you're already at the end, which you probably already have so you can know whether you can/should call again. You might not know the precise number of results to size…

I’m not in infra or apps; I’m a database engineer. I write ETL pipelines.

If you know you have one more result, that is necessarily because your data pipeline actually has that result available for it to count; i.e. the result record/tuple has been loaded into the database’s memory, and the database has determined that that record/tuple is valid and fresh. (And at that point, rather than counting, the DB may as well send you that record itself. Just counting it has already required almost all of the same work!)

Remember that MVCC exists. You can’t know how much of something you have as of a given instant without doing version deduplication/application of tombstone records. This is the reason that COUNT() in Postgres takes minutes/hours on large (>1bn records) partitioned tables: you have to actually visit records, to see whether they’re still part of the current MVCC transaction-version, and therefore whether they should be contributors to the current count.

That applies whether or not you’re “counting” or actually streaming results. Given the architecture of both traditional data-warehouses — and of the map-reduce systems like Hadoop that are used to do reporting on data-lake data — you can’t know whether anything that’s in the rest of the data set is going to actually exist when you get to it. Your data warehouse might have a 100GB heap of data in a table, but everything after the first 1GB of it is dead tuples, such that after you’ve streamed the first 1GB of results, the rest of the streaming consists of the data warehouse sitting there silently for a minute or two (as it checks the liveness of those tuples) before saying “okay, nothing more, we’re done.”

And because of this, it’s not about precision. You can’t even guess. You can’t know whether you have one more result, or a billion more. Until you actually check them.

Yes, OLAP systems are different. OLAP systems operate in terms of infrequent batch inserts, giving the system time to build indices, generate counts, etc. in-between, that will all stay valid up until the time of the next batch insert. An index is, in a sense, a pre-baked answer of the “set of live tuple-versions” that a data-warehouse is holding. Count the table? Just return the size of the index. If you’ve only ever built OLAP-oriented systems, maybe it feels like these are the “simple, obvious” solutions to this problem.

But none of the things we’re talking about — global-web search engines, social-network timelines, marketplace listings — are OLAP systems. They’re OLTP. They constantly get new results in, and people expect to be able to see freshly-inserted data in the results as soon as they insert it. Data comes in at too high a rate to generate “dataset snapshots” ala ElasticSearch. The pipeline has to deal with data as it comes, doing as little to it as possible so that it can ingest it all at the ridiculous rates required, by pushing all the work of validating tuple liveness/freshness off to query-time.

And given that, OLAP properties don’t attain in such systems. It’s basically the CAP theorem at work: Consistency (and cross-shard index-building) both require time for the system to investigate itself; and you can’t get Availability (and/or cross-shard freshness) unless you run the system too fast to allow for that time.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> swipe-sideways on SMS WHAT?!

Once you discover once that swiping sideways on a message reveals metadata, you notice that this is transferrable to most messengers on iOS (all I use). The first time I discovered that was by accident while playing with the device. I notice that I pretty much never use this feature.

Point is, you shouldn't have to "discover" anything about an interface. If it's hidden from the user, it's an easter-egg that should be nothing more than amusing, but useful functionality should never be deliberately kept from the user.

I use it all the time. I work off-shift so most of the messages I receive were sent quite a while ago, and pending when I wake up and grab my device. Knowing when they were sent is a very important bit of context.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you discover once that swiping sideways on a message reveals metadata, you notice that this is transferrable to most messengers on iOS (all I use). The first time I discovered that was by accident while playing with the device. I notice that I pretty much never use this feature.

Point is, you shouldn't have to "discover" anything about an interface. If it's hidden from the user, it's an easter-egg that should be nothing more than amusing, but useful functionality should never be deliberately kept from the user. I use it all the time. I work off-shift so most of the messages I receive were sent quite a while ago, and pending when I wake up and grab my device. Knowing when they were sent is a…

If you spell everything out all the time, you will have laughable information density and hurt your user’s productivity. I would strongly object to that.

It seems natural to spend a little time exploring the interface of an extremely complicated instrument that is an integral part of your daily life, reading Tips, etc. That also means if this device is not exactly that heavily used (say you have assistants for that), you are spared of wasting your cognition cycles on simply being aware about all the features it has in store.

FWIW search field in Apple’s own apps like Settings mentioned upthread is revealed to me every time I scroll from the bottom back up to the top of the list due to inertia, I don’t know if they changed it recently or not. (Other apps often make a mess of the same UI pattern. In WhatsApp it is much more difficult to discover, requiring to really pull down and wait to see Archived Chats, and meanwhile Search field is just there wasting screen space despite being used once every few months.)

That said, I don’t have a strong opinion about message timestamps in particular—I believe there are ways of showing them smartly if you haven’t used your phone for a while and missed a bunch of messages without overloading the UI for people like me who couldn’t really care less about that (RIP my IRL social life as of late). Perhaps Messages could use more attention from a good product designer.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#570
post #12

Another one of such thing: please try to scroll on your site using a mouse wheel from time to time, even if you're normally using a touchpad (from your laptop or an external one)! Lot of fancy homepage with scroll animations are awful on anything that isn't scrolling as smoothly as a MacBookPro touchpad. Example: https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/ is horrible to use on anything that isn't a mobile device or a Mac.

I really hate such "parallax effect" sites. Even iPad it's uncomfortable.
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