Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#561

Post by hirundo » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

downvoteme1 wrote: post #521

fermienrico wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with this for most things except my phone. I trust Apple more than any party in the world. Even the government. Fortnight devs, Epic, whatever are not even on the same radar. They'll sell your privacy in milliseconds if they can get 2.5 cents for it. I would never ever own an open source phone. Not because the operating system is open source (probably good that it has eyes on it) but there is no way to cont…

Not related to the poster but it is surprising that HN is becoming like Reddit where non conformist opinions are downvoted extensively.

In order to believe that's a new thing you must have predominantly conformist opinions. Congratulations, that probably makes your life easier.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#562

Post by CamperBob2 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

ernst_klim wrote: post #403

CamperBob2 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't install unsigned apps. The notion that the platform owner is somehow doing you a favor by denying you that choice is nothing but a manifestation of Stockholm Syndrome in action.

> Then don't install unsigned apps. The problem is that most people know nothing about software distribution, signatures etc etc, and would become an easy target for fishers, as they do on Windows or Android. People oft underestimate how little avg user knows about computers and basic hygiene.

The problem is that most people know nothing about software distribution, signatures etc etc, and would become an easy target for fishers

That doesn't sound like my problem, or, frankly, yours.

If you create an environment where careless people never experience the consequences of their carelessness, then rest assured, you won't get fewer careless people or less careless behavior as a result. You will get more of both.

You will have bred a culture of dependency... which is certainly financially convenient for Apple.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#563

Post by klmadfejno » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #479

klmadfejno wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The engine is open source isn't it? They can't stop you from downloading the source and compiling it, right?

It's not clear how the Epic vs Apple war is going to come out, but both sides have doubled down on their positions, so it's probably going to take a while to resolve. So the worst case scenario, third party UE4 game devs being unable to get their game's code signed for MacOS or IOS installation, could happen.

That sounds improbable, and if enacted, grounds for a much heavier suit against Apple. Even if Apple has beef with Epic, I don't see how Apple could refuse third parties who want to use Epic's software as part of their product in Apple stores. There's an element of people using UE4 being in contract with Epic by default, but presumably Apple has no basis to say you must not have a business relationship with Epic in order to publish on the app store.

The unreal game engine itself shouldn't have anything that apple dislikes.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#564

Post by bosswipe » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

fermienrico wrote: post #438

throwaw4y-plate wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I trust Apple more than any party in the world. That opinion is likely to be a bit of an outlier, heh.

I honestly do. Who would you trust more?

Now that you know that Apple will abuse the security mechanism for their own self-interest do you still trust them more?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#565

Post by gtyras2mrs » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #267

brmgb wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The App Store's exclusivity is precisely the same as that of nearly every video game console. I don't understand why you keep bringing up video game consoles in this discussion. 1. You seem to believe people actually agree with the way console stores work. This is not the case. 2. The fact that the situation is also terrible somewhere else doesn't absolve Apple of anything. That's not how justice works.

If you are consistent in your claims and believe that all computing devices, including smartphones, game consoles, e-book readers, GPS watches, car entertainment centers, etc. should be required to provide a way for owners to run unsigned code, then my accusations of inconsistency do not apply to you. In fact, I see much much less vitriol aimed towards game console store policy than iOS App Store policy. That's why I…

They cannot fight all battles at once. They probably think they have a better chance of winning this battle and setting the precedent for the next battles for other "app store" issues.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#566

Post by grishka » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #508

chillacy wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some sites have big scary warnings if you try to open the dev console in the page for this reason. I don't know how well that works though. We can put all the warnings on bleach we want, someone out there is still going to drink it.

> We can put all the warnings on bleach we want, someone out there is still going to drink it. If we went with the Apple solution, this means nobody gets to use bleach.

Except Apple engineers.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#567

Post by StevePerkins » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

Waterfall wrote: post #499

dreamcompiler wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman is a difficult person to like and he is wrong about many things, but not about this, the central issue of his career.

What do you find him wrong about?

He has expressed skepticism that "willing participation" in pedophilia harms children. And given a couple of bizarre quotes on bestiality (essentially, "if the animal initiates it then what's the problem?").

More recently, he was pushed out of MIT and the FSF last year for questioning whether one of Jeffrey Epstein's victims was truly a victim or not.

He prefers Emacs over Vim.

There are probably other examples, but that's off the top of my head.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#568

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #366

amaccuish wrote: post #97

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

Isn’t it a bit naive that we ever believed the notarization feature would not be used to blacklist developers for business reasons? I feel like a chump now. It is definitely clear that apple does not have the best interest of me, their customer, at heart. Epic were being very sneaky towards Apple, but not malicious towards users in any way. Apple is being malicious. If I want to run Epic’s software without disabling…

[deleted]

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#569

Post by heavyset_go » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

Keyframe wrote: post #245

sjg007 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers bought the phone which can be be considered a general computing device.. so we should be free to run whatever software we want on it. That's the real argument.

I agree with that, but it’s then also a broader question that covers all computing devices. Should I be able to run free whatever software I want in my car, in any of its systems? How about medical devices or any of the gaming consoles? It’ll probably end up being an argument on what a general computing device is.

> Should I be able to run free whatever software I want in my car, in any of its systems?

You already do. Mechanics do this all of the time with aftermarket firmware.

> How about medical devices or any of the gaming consoles

Jailbreaking is explicitly legal.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#570

Post by kelnos » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

floatingatoll wrote: post #373

amaccuish wrote: post #97

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

Epic expressly snuck code through the door to activate a user-visible feature in direct prohibition to App Store rules. Apple could have revoked their developer certificate in response, which would have essentially killed all installations of Fortnite iOS/Mac worldwide within 24 hours. That they are merely revoking their ability to sign new code and giving them 2 weeks to perform an orderly shutdown is far less draco…

> Epic expressly snuck code through the door to activate a user-visible feature in direct prohibition to App Store rules.

I don't think "snuck" is accurate. They did intentionally do it, but it was likely pretty obvious to the app reviewer. This was necessary, because you can't sue a company because they'll harm you for something you'd like to do, but haven't done yet. You have to do the thing, get harmed, and then sue.

> Apple could have revoked their developer certificate in response, which would have essentially killed all installations of Fortnite iOS/Mac worldwide within 24 hours. That they are merely revoking their ability to sign new code and giving them 2 weeks to perform an orderly shutdown is far less draconian than they're capable of being here.

Don't pretend they're doing this to be nice to Epic; they know that if they cut off all existing Fortnite users, they'd get a huge amount of customer complaints and bad press. At least here they can appear like they're being reasonable and only hurting the company that violated their policies.