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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#561

Post by pwagland »

eanzenberg wrote: post #540
clydethefrog wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gentrification is the opposite of people moving up the economic ladder - it's the influx of more affluent residents.

Actually no, gentrification causes existing homeowners to increase their property values. It literally gives the existing community the opportunity to move up the economic ladder.

_Only_ if the existing community is _also_ the existing landowners. This is not always the case, often you have a large renting population. These renters only see there costs go up, not their assets.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#562

Post by hopler »

NathanKP wrote: post #547
lenzm wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly means revenue for the city but we don't know that it means profit. All of those people are going to generate trash, take the subway and consume city services. Why shouldn't Amazon pay like everyone else?

Let me explain it in terms that any New Yorker should be able to understand: If you are a New Yorker you are no doubt familiar with the concept of "one month free rent". Most buildings in NYC will give you one month free when you sign your lease. If a building doesn't give you that offer its probably not as tempting as another nearby building that does. Yet the "one month free" isn't a losing money proposition for th…

That's the narrative, but too often the promised backside never arrives.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#563

Post by [deleted] »

nodesocket wrote: post #502
clydethefrog wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gentrification is the opposite of people moving up the economic ladder - it's the influx of more affluent residents.

So you really think Amazon was only going to hire people that already had wealth. It's not possible that somebody making $50k a year, could land a great new position at Amazon making $150k? Cortez is shooting her democrat constituents in the foot, and living up to her affiliation of democratic-socialist.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#564

Post by vonmoltke »

bogomipz wrote: post #409
jhall1468 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions. Amazon got nothing special outside of reduced regulatory burden. Why is this not understood? This same subsidy is now going to go to 15 companies who all probably pay less on average than Amazon. There are skilled workforces outside of NY, believe it or not. And they aren't going to go through the regulatory burdens to expand NY to a major ca…

>"Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions." Really? Let look at what was offered: 1 $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and 2 $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) 3 $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits 4 $505 million in a capital grant Yes the first 3 are existing programs. But the idea that those sums or…

> Yes the first 3 are existing programs. But the idea that those sums or anything remotely close to them would simply be made available to any company moving to NY is comical at best.

> $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP)

That works out to $35,880 per employee that Amazon promised. Per the REAP program website[1], the credits available are $3000 per employee for 12 years. That actually works out to slightly more per employee ($36,000). So yes, any company not currently in NYC that creates 25,000 jobs in one of the designated areas would get the $897MM in benefits.

> $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP)

ICAP is a property tax abatement available to any company willing to redevelop qualifying properties[2]. The value of the abatement is based on the final value of the property and which benefit schedule[3] it qualifies for. Any company willing to put in the same amount of redevelopment in one of the designated areas as Amazon was will get the same abatement value.

> $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits

I don't have the time at the moment to calculate how this was arrived at, but looking at the overview of credits available[4] it appears to follow similar formulas as the NYC programs.

In short, I do not see it as "comical" by any measure that any company offering to create 25,000 new jobs and redevelop hundreds of millions of dollars worth of property in designated areas would get these same values. Amazon didn't get these numbers because they were Amazon, but because of the scale of what they proposed to do. Whether that is a good idea to offer to any company is open for debate.

[1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/business-reap.pag...

[2] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/benefits/benefits-industri...

[3] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/finance/downloads/pdf/icap/icap_...

[4] https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#565

Post by jcranberry »

bko wrote: post #554
zelias wrote: post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

Most new Yorkers supported the project even when told about the subsidies. It's a vocal minority that sank the project https://www.wsj.com/articles/majority-of-new-yorkers-support...

How about New Yorkers who lived in Queens?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#566

Post by hopler »

eanzenberg wrote: post #519
lenzm wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly means revenue for the city but we don't know that it means profit. All of those people are going to generate trash, take the subway and consume city services. Why shouldn't Amazon pay like everyone else?

That's literally paid by those employee taxes? Unless you'd rather more homeless and drug addicts move in, which it seems is what NYC local politicians wanted.

NYC has a giant statue inviting homeless and drug addicts in. And good for them.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#567

Post by fjp »

raiyu wrote: post #122
tmh79 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the issue for me is that the main benefit of the tax breaks is capitalized by owners of AMZN stock, mainly Bezos, the wealthiest man in the world. AMZN is going to grow somewhere, they should pay taxes where they grow.

Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless at least this we can continue to make NYC a powerhouse tech center. And it's in Long island City not in Manhattan like Facebook and Google.

Wouldn't you rather existing NYC residents build new companies to make it a tech center?

You're just letting the giant school bully take over your neighborhood for below market value (due to the massive tax breaks) and declaring "Look! We're a tech center!"

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#568

Post by kokokokoko »

magduf wrote: post #196
kokokokoko wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very different because a large amount of NYC residents rent as opposed to own. To a resident that rents in NYC, Amazon moving in means they will have higher rents and less money on their pocket. It ends up costing many NYC residents actual money in rent to host Amazon, regardless of the subsidy. I think this one is a special case.

I don't see the problem here at all. If you have higher rents, that's because there's more demand for housing, and not enough affordable new housing is being constructed. Who controls that? Your local politicians. Who controls them? The voters who elected them, which is you if you live there. So you have no one to blame but yourself, and no cause to complain. You have the government you deserve.

The real data we have shows that incomes of the people who live in an area has more correlation with the cost of rent than the demand. Amazon will bring in workers that will earn higher salary than the average NYC resident. The only way prices could go down would be if developers made a huge error across the industry and oversupplied housing. What you are suggesting is impossible, unless the government steps in and starts to add housing supply with taxpayer dollars. I'm not sure your idea has much reality baked into it. And a resident of NYC is going to vote for real world solutions that benefit them. Not pie in the sky internet ideology.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#569

Post by hopler »

SolarNet wrote: post #516
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure any such tax breaks would have to be public data by now, even if they were originally hashed out behind closed doors. If you're implying that Google got tax breaks, and no one noticed the public data confirming these tax breaks, please provide evidence of the data that has been overlooked.

> would have to be public data by now Show me the public data source where I could conceivably find that out and I'll do "please provide evidence of the data that has been overlooked". Because I don't think that data source exists. I don't think you realize how opaque tax records are in many places. You seem to be implying that there is a way for the public - or even journalists - to acquire the tax and assessment in…

Property taxes are generally searchable online. Redfin will tell you residential real estate taxes for a property, for example.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#570

Post by elicash »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #186
Justin_K wrote: post #112

If these states are so flush in cash that they can give tax breaks, they should go to small business... not the richest guy in the world. Why should government intervene in in a free market and give one business a massive advantage over everybody else?

NY has multiple programs to attract small business: https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program

Wasn't the NY proposal to take $1.2 billion in Excelsior tax credits and give them to Amazon? And I think Start-Up NY is an Excelsior program?

I mean, I think it's great if there's now budget to increase support for small businesses.

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