Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you are only allowed to speak freely when noone can hear you - are you then allowed freedom of speech?
This is a misleading characterization of the situation. Being banned from an arbitrary website doesn't mean that nobody can hear you. Twitter is not the internet, you are free to post whatever content you want on a platform that is friendlier to the message or on your own personal platform. Nobody owes you a platform.
Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
561–570 of 789 posts
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#562Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I have not encountered any instance of this occurring. How could you witness such a thing occurring? This seems like an unreasonable evidentiary standard. > We're seeing trust in media and tech companies plummet. While the fact that a rise in extremist views is correlated with increases in deplatforming is not hard evidence of causation, it's extremely difficult to claim that deplatforming works to reduce said view…
> Do HIV drugs cause HIV? How is immunodeficiency treatment at all related to deplatforming? Viruses aren't thinking human beings. > Do civil rights movements cause racism? The Civil Rights movement did not enagage in deplatforming. Many of them explicitly acknowledged that their opponents also deserve the ability to speak. It was often the civil Rights movement itself that was subject to deplatforming. > Of course i…
> The Civil Rights movement did not enagage in deplatforming. Many of them explicitly acknowledged that their opponents also deserve the ability to speak. It was often the civil Rights movement itself that was subject to deplatforming.
My point is that the type of reasoning you used here would lead you to draw both of those conclusions.
> The rise of deplatforming preceded the rise of the Alt Right by about a year or two. They didn't always co-occur, one preceded the other. Their continued co-occurrence suggests that the implementation of deplatforming either 1. has no effect on that brand of extremist, or 2. maybe even causes it.
That's an a-factual statement. When did the alt right "rise"? Was it when Mencius Moldbug started writing Unqualified Reservations in 2007? When Richard Spencer joined the National Policy Institute in 2011? During Gamergate in 2014? Similarly, when did de-platforming 'start'? Was it when people first started protesting The Bell Curve when it was published in 1994? Was it when British National Union of Students adopted a no-platform policy?
The point is, neither of these events have a well-defined starting point, so any claim of one preceding the other is silly, and has no basis in fact.
> Limiting measurement to individual communities is not a good way to measur it's overall effect. Again pointing out the fact that when a community deplatforms a certain view that view is no longer present is pointing out an obvious consequence. Of course the platform sees a reduction in the view that was deplatformed. That's basically just restating the definition of deplatforming: kicking a person or group off the platform.
Your objection suggests a specific causal model, though. You're right that kicking users off of the platform will tautologically reduce the content. However, what if you didn't kick people off the platform? What if instead, as in the example I linked, you banned the sub-communities dedicated to advocacy of the proscribed topics? The people stay, the community goes. Then, you look at the level of the material in other sub-communities on the site. That is what those studies did, and that is why they demonstrate causality.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#563Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think one of the bigger complaints as I understand it, is that Patreon is a de facto monopoly in this space and their rules for these circumstances are arbitrary and capricious. The outstanding question seems to be whether this merits a degree of outrage, not whether we as a society should pass some laws that would protect creators from Patreon. I know very little about Sargon of Akkad, but as I understand it, his…
Patreon is not a de facto monopoly. There is twitch (for subscription/donation), ko-fi (direct donation), mailing a check, PayPal, stripe...
https://twitter.com/nickmon1112/status/1076886857445711872?s...
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#564Earlier quoted context omitted.
Really? How many anti-feminists are there on Hacker News? Very few, I'd say, especially as such views tend to be immediately downvoted and flagged into oblivion. There are however plenty of people who are disturbed by the systematic way certain minorities attack and destroy speech about ideas that are, objectively, commonplace and popular (just look at opinion polls). Even the top voted comment on this whole thread t…
> Very few, I'd say, especially as such views tend to be immediately downvoted and flagged into oblivion They do have to be here to be voted down, though. But they show up often enough in threads that deviate into gender politics (particularly as regards hiring and women in tech,) gender biology and, unsurprisingly, feminism. And codes of conduct. For some weird reason, a lot of people seem to believe software codes…
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#565Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I'd deplore everything about it, I would note that the most well American fascist website was online when I checked a moment ago. And I'd note that the effort deplatform that site occurred because it was quite well known and truly obscure publications are much less likely to get that treatment (for good or ill). Which is to say that net now certainly makes a wider range of views available to those interested th…
Who knows though if it's left up at the request of law enforcement as a sort of "fascist bug zapper" where they get attracted to the electric light and then zapped. A few isolated examples of free speech being possible by highly undesirable groups doesn't necessarily mean what it looks like.
That free speech allows people who advocate crimes to be watched hardly by itself is hardly argument that this isn't really free speech.
I mean, to some extent, I think it's OK fascist have some venue for their expression. That having such a venue should benefit them rather than being an opportunity for them to hoist themselves on the own petard really doesn't seem like something they can demand.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#566Earlier quoted context omitted.
Listeners are perfectly free to go elsewhere to hear racist speech — Gab exists, 4chan exists, and there are plenty of smaller sites dedicated to this as well. Insofar as they want to support someone monetarily, no one can prevent them from using Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is failing and if that’s the best option for free speech, it proves that the mainstream actually doesn’t support it.
If one wants to save up or speculate, well, thats a different matter.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#567Earlier quoted context omitted.
This comment doesn't address my points at all. First, none of those sites are Patreon competitors. Second, I never claimed alternatives didn't exist. Third, in context it's pretty clear that Sargon is trying to insult racists. I don't know much about him, but from that clip it seems like his shtick is to get attention by making points in controversial ways. Well, mission accomplished (in every sense of the phrase). M…
Patreon has ... a political bias, and that's not good for them What makes you think that their bias is not good for them as a business? To me, it seems quite possible that were they to take the "principled" stance you advocate, they would soon find themselves facing much larger problems. Either their payment processors would cut them off, or they would face a larger and better organized boycott by those who prefer th…
I doubt that they did this for any reason other than using power against people they don’t like.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#568Earlier quoted context omitted.
Patreon has ... a political bias, and that's not good for them What makes you think that their bias is not good for them as a business? To me, it seems quite possible that were they to take the "principled" stance you advocate, they would soon find themselves facing much larger problems. Either their payment processors would cut them off, or they would face a larger and better organized boycott by those who prefer th…
> What makes you think that their bias is not good for them as a business? Well it caused me to cancel all of my subscriptions. It caused Sam Harris to cancel his account. It caused a lot of people to look for alternatives. I'm pretty sure this decision hurt Patreon's bottom line. > Either their payment processors would cut them off, or they would face a larger and better organized boycott by those who prefer their c…
https://twitter.com/nickmon1112/status/1076886857445711872?s...
Thread where a journalist finds evidence to that effect.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U0mQjUA0T5INc_GDkwPJ2mfh...
Transcript of a call from the Patreon censorship department with a creator.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#569Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ...you can change your mind and ideas but can't change your race So we can ban people for/against atheism because it's an idea one could theoretically change their minds on?
I mean you could make the legitimate argument that Atheism is a religion in itself. That said, your example is lacking and ill-defined in legalese.
Atheism is literally the opposite of religion.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#570I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…
> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…
I partially agree. Freedom of speech isn't the right to be heard by those who don't want to hear you, but it most certainly is the right to be heard by those who do want to hear you.
To put it another way: Alice wants to say something. Bob wants to hear what Alice has to say. Cedric, a would-be censor, wants to prevent Alice getting her message out to Bob. Censorship is whenever Cedric wins, and freedom of speech is whenever Cedric fails.