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The Machine Fired Me

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Re: The Machine Fired Me

#561

Post by pc86 »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #485
local_yokel wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's a well known problem where the training set isn't representative of the underlying population. While it can certainly be argued that the engineers should have recognized this deficiency and taken corrective action, I really don't understand why all the respondents to your post are so quick to assert racist intent based on clickbait headlines from Forbes.

Because it is racism. It is ignoring a large swath of humanity based on the color of their skin. You may not want to think of it as racism because it's not the burn a cross on their lawn type of racism, but it's still systemic racism.

> It is ignoring a large swath of humanity based on the color of their skin.

No, it's an insufficiently sensitive contrast filter combine with too narrow a training set. Screaming racism at everything that is even marginally approaching the topic of race detracts from real racism and ignores the actual issue here - shitty software.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#562

Post by pc86 »

dagw wrote: post #360
pc86 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it. It's not that hard to find both conscious and subconscious examples of systemic or individual racism. Engineers taking the easy path with webcam facial recognition is probably not a good one and serves only to give more fuel to those who claim people jump to the racism cry too quickly.

That's not racism, that's laziness. If the system had failed for with people with different hair color rather than skin color would they have been equally lazy?

What else would they have been?

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#563

Post by skj »

walshemj wrote: post #502
skj wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An internal Google site that let's people see who has left the company and, occasionally, why.

Err isn't that a potential huge legal liability

I don't know. What do you imagine someone would sue for?

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#564

Post by wpietri »

pc86 wrote: post #560
wpietri wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ship a product because it only works for white people and that's good enough, that is definitely racism. Just as it would be sexism if you shipped a voice recognition product that only worked for men. Laziness and racism aren't mutually exclusive. Historically in America, white people haven't considered black people as fully human. You can read the various declarations of secession or the 3/5ths compromise for…

This is neat, in a conversation about the technical aspects of image recognition with webcams in low lighting conditions, you're talking about secession and the 3/5th compromise. Let's try to stay on topic. > But deciding a product was good enough to ship without caring that it worked for black people requires the effective belief that black people didn't really count as people. Nobody ever said "oh it doesn't work w…

I do not admit that "the cause" is laziness. Laziness is part of the causal chain, sure. Single-cause thinking is a poor way to do a failure retrospective.

We don't know whether or not they knew it didn't work with black people before they shipped it. Maybe they did and dismissed it with technical hogwash, as you are here. Maybe they did and decided it was an ok flaw. Maybe they didn't know because the company doesn't have any black employees and nobody though to test it on black people because the people in charge don't know any. Or maybe they do and just don't care. There are many possible paths to this decision, but any of them demonstrates systemic racism.

And this is on topic, because the broader topic is social implications of technology.

As an aside, your attempt to narrowly define the topic so racism can't even be spoken of is a pretty typical move from people experiencing white fragility: http://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/view/249

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#565

Post by filleduchaos »

tallanvor wrote: post #470
anchpop wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not. SSNs can and have been reused

There have been cases where the same SSN was issued multiple times on accident, but they haven't been reused on purpose.

Isn't an SSN only 9 digits? Seems inevitable that you'll hit reuse (not now, but probably before the end or even middle of the century)

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#566

Post by astura »

davedx wrote: post #211
astura wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their account got cancelled because the contract did not get renewed. Sounds like the company fulfilled the terms of the original contract, just (accidentally) didn't renew it. Many long term contracts require periodic renewals and/or options. >Some of that work included renewing my contract in the new system... When my contract expired, the machine took over and fired me.

That's weird though. Was it a three year contract or wasn't it?

It's not weird - the vast majority of long term contracts I've seen (for services my company provides) are several years long but requires the other party to renew the contract at periodic intervals.

So the contract was negotiated at a specific price point for (say) three years but every X months the other party can opt out by not renewing. They only commit for a certain term.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#567

Post by astura »

Bartweiss wrote: post #435
davedx wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's weird though. Was it a three year contract or wasn't it?

As I read the piece, it was a three year contract which was included in the old HR system, but not ported to the new one. If that's true, it was certainly breach of contract - "we forgot to upload the paperwork" doesn't get you out of honoring it.

If that was the case they would have not said "renew." "Renew" has special meaning in contracts.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#568

Post by jacobsenscott »

rectang wrote: post #81
jacobsenscott wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like he's contracting at a huge company. His contracting company isn't going to make waves over this. I would guess the contracting company is making $300+ an hour off this guy, paying him $50 an hour, and they have 200+ other contractors in the building.

So, wage theft. Now we're not just talking about a lost opportunity to reward a loyal worker. If you're right, somebody ought to be going to jail.

I don't really know if there's wage theft going on. I suppose the client company got some free work out of him, but the company can argue he shouldn't have been in the building. His badge didn't work, etc. But maybe the will let him bill those hours retroactively.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#569

Post by tgdenominator »

wpietri wrote: post #431
pc86 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it. It's not that hard to find both conscious and subconscious examples of systemic or individual racism. Engineers taking the easy path with webcam facial recognition is probably not a good one and serves only to give more fuel to those who claim people jump to the racism cry too quickly.

If you ship a product because it only works for white people and that's good enough, that is definitely racism. Just as it would be sexism if you shipped a voice recognition product that only worked for men. Laziness and racism aren't mutually exclusive. Historically in America, white people haven't considered black people as fully human. You can read the various declarations of secession or the 3/5ths compromise for…

Seeing someone interact with others after drinking enough kool-aid to fill a pool is actually pretty entertaining. Thanks, I needed a break from work.

Speaking of work, have you tried testing your definition of racism on non-white subjects and products, such as Black Entertainment Television? It doesn't hold up very well.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#570

Post by eythian »

lostlogin wrote: post #518
eythian wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've ever used an ATM that doesn't do this since I started using them some time in the late 90's, even when the cards had magstripe and the chip was a twinkle in a beach's eye.

Pbh101 and eythian - where in the world are you? I’m in New Zealand usually and France currently and I’ll pay attention in the U.K. next week. I’d love the strip to be redundant.

From NZ, now in NL. In both places, the card is virtually always ingested into the machine, and only released as the second-last step (before you get the cash.)
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