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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

blog.cloudflare.com

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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#561

Post by cmurf »

r721 wrote: post #4

>“This was my decision. This is not Cloudflare’s general policy now, going forward,” Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince told Gizmodo. “I think we have to have a conversation over what part of the infrastructure stack is right to police content.” (from internal email) >Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning i…

I think arbitrary is the wrong word, the correct word is subjective. The decision wasn't random, or capricious as is the denotation of arbitrary. But the decision was subjective in that it's based more on instinct, bias, opinion, feeling, than it is on something objective that can be articulated in a way that it's a reproducible judgement with different particulars.

Added since I'm hitting a rate limiter:

These white supremacist flare ups happen in the U.S. and there's no predicting how serious they are by casual observation. There is substantial evidence they want to establish a white ethno state, that is their stated goal and purpose.

1924, Democratic national convention, KKK tried to get their guy made the Democatic presidential nominee, it involved physical fist fights, hundreds of police had to break up the fight, it took over 100 rounds of ballots over two weeks to sort it out. The following year, 25,000 KKK in full regalia were marching on D.C. in broad daylight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Democratic_National_Conve...

1934-1936 Nazis at Madison Square Garden http://mashable.com/2016/07/27/nazis-madison-square-garden/

1984 there was a broad daylight armored trunk heist in California, $3 million bounty. Most of the money wasn't recovered but what was traced was found to be funding various Nazi organizations with the purpose of starting a civil war. One of those groups, The Order, had a hit list including Allan Berg a Denver journalist who was assassinated outside of his home, by Nazis. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-01-31/news/850106068...

2015 Charleston church shooting by Dylan Roof.

And an FBI DHS assessment this year that finds again, among domestic extremists, they are most concerned about white supremacists. "White Supremacist Extremism Poses Persistent Threat of Lethal Violence." https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3924852-White-Suprem...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#562

Post by typon »

It always perplexes me when libertarians (the Silicon Valley kind) argue for radical freedom but don't like it when a company chooses to exercise it.

Don't like it? Create a competitor to Cloudflare.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#563

Post by colllectorof »

nardi wrote: post #540
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

Gender, race, age, sexual orientation, etc. are “protected classes” that you can’t discriminate on. Being a Nazi is not a protected class. If you have a business, you can feel free to discriminate against Nazis. And you probably should.

Protected classes in California include "political activities or affiliations".

Also, did the website actually self-identify as Nazi, or were they just called that by other people?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#564

Post by dllthomas »

colllectorof wrote: post #563
nardi wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender, race, age, sexual orientation, etc. are “protected classes” that you can’t discriminate on. Being a Nazi is not a protected class. If you have a business, you can feel free to discriminate against Nazis. And you probably should.

Protected classes in California include "political activities or affiliations". Also, did the website actually self-identify as Nazi, or were they just called that by other people?

Well, they seem to have been named by reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_St%C3%BCrmer...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#565

Post by hsod »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #26

I get the whole "companies can choose not to host whatever they want" argument, but in order to do anything on the internet, you have to interact with companies. If I want to run my own website, I need an IP address at the minimum, and ISPs are free to cut off my internet service if they don't like what I'm hosting. In a public setting, if people don't like what I'm saying, they can't force me to be quiet (generally)…

> but can prevent you from voicing your opinions just because they're a "deplorable" or you don't agree with them

If we're gonna talk about Nazis, let's talk about Nazis.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#566

Post by [deleted] »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #26

I get the whole "companies can choose not to host whatever they want" argument, but in order to do anything on the internet, you have to interact with companies. If I want to run my own website, I need an IP address at the minimum, and ISPs are free to cut off my internet service if they don't like what I'm hosting. In a public setting, if people don't like what I'm saying, they can't force me to be quiet (generally)…

[deleted]

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#567

Post by hueving »

Larrikin wrote: post #554
Consultant32452 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you operate on public infrastructure, like being granted public right of ways to lay fiber, I think you lose the right to discriminate. This feels good because Nazis are assholes but it sets a very dangerous precedent. This is why the ACLU has a long history of defending Nazis and their ilk. Because one day it will be you on the other side. We should all discriminate against Nazis by denouncing them, ignoring them…

What happened last time the Nazis were ignored?

The last 70 years.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#569

Post by CurtMonash »

I say again -- he claims that the Daily Stormer claimed that Cloudflare NOT cutting them off was some kind of endorsement.

If true, that makes them a very special case.

I generally oppose almost all cases of a company using their legal right of censorship, at least when it's squarely aimed at censoring OPINIONS rather than just censoring specific modes of expression (e.g. threats, curse words, whatever). But he managed to find a legitimate-sounding loophole. He has no obligation to support the Daily Stormer's false claim of endorsement via his (in)actions.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#570

Post by axonic »

tuna-piano wrote: post #77
r721 wrote: post #4

>“This was my decision. This is not Cloudflare’s general policy now, going forward,” Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince told Gizmodo. “I think we have to have a conversation over what part of the infrastructure stack is right to police content.” (from internal email) >Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning i…

It's so bizarre. He tries to have it both ways. He says "no one should have that power", but then says he did it literally earlier that day. He says CloudFlare isn't changing their "content-neutral" policy... but clearly they did change that policy. I have many reasons to oppose nazis, including incredibly personal ones. That said, I think crossing this content line for an infrastructure company is a big deal, and I…

Agreed, wholeheartedly
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