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Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#561

Post by dang »

manfredo wrote: post #514

I think I do a good job of clarifying this in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14953580 I'll just copy paste the relevant portion here, to save most people a click: Say a company does one phone-interview, and if passed, moves on to on-sites. But for diverse candidates they do two phone interviews and if either passes they move on to on-sites. * Unqualified candidates always fail, since neither ph…

Please don't copy-paste here. The discussion is repetitive enough without that.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14954803 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#562

Post by clairity »

just reading quickly through the document (memo? manifesto? commentary?), it's obviously highly political, both in positional language and ideological couching. the author may believe he is being completely logical in his thinking, but it's full of post-hoc rationalization. * disappointed *

should the guy have been fired? probably. it's political and divisive and disrupts the workplace. but he'll bounce back. it's not like he was black and selling crack on the corner.

are the ideas worth debating? yes, at least some of them. just not in a public document directed at your employer ...in a righteous, sometimes condescending tone. that's just dumb, or more charitably, a rookie mistake. you just gotta know that kind of stuff can get you fired, even if you see yourself as the hero (spoiler: ned stark, season 1).

i'm a little disappointed at the amount of panning required to find the interesting nuggets of discussion buried in this otherwise huge dung heap of political posturing (on both sides) in these comments. is it nature or nuture? my gosh, it just might be both!

what's fascinating to me is the document's lens onto a parallel rationalization and political decision calculus that leads us to a president trump. it's not the totality of it by any stretch of the imagination, but it smells of that sense of loss and frustration by the perennial political winners who (real or imagined) see their grip on the political narrative weakening. how will it turn out? stay tuned for next week's episode, when we find out who jon's parents are!

* eyebrow arched over beer mug held with an erect pinky finger

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#563

Post by pducks32 »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

I agree. These topics turn all of us (it’s one thing we all have un common) into savages. Obviosuly no one shoukd feel discriminated against at work or feel harassed, and yes everyone shoukd have the right to speak about their opinions in a non-violent or threatening way, but the only way this is getting any better people is if we relax and speak not to a whole community but to one person like you are suggesting. You know just say, “come on dude cool it please”

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#564

Post by williamsmj »

wyclif wrote: post #31

Fun fact: the author of the memo earned a PhD in Biology from Harvard. Google can fire him and get away with it, but it's going to be tough, very tough, for him to be falsely characterized as someone who is misinformed or unscientific. And the court of public opinion may well be more important in this controversy than any court of law.

I have a PhD in astrophysics from a peer institution of Harvard. I know dozens of people with PhDs who are "misinformed and unscientific" on many topics, including their nominal specialization.

And by the way, another fun fact:

As far as I can can tell, he doesn't have a PhD. He didn't publish any papers while he was at Harvard. You don't get through a modern elite PhD program without making any contribution to the literature. And his thesis is not showing up in any library search I do. He seems to have dropped out very early.

No shame in that, of course. But since you and many others are saying he has credibility on a matter unrelated to the topic of his PhD precisely because he has a PhD: he, er, may not have a PhD.

By the way, the more cited of his two papers reads like it was written by someone very new to research, who had his editor open in one window and the Wikipedia page for "List of Logical Fallacies" open in another.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#565

Post by the_cyber_pass »

fatbird wrote: post #355
jorgemf wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If gender-based diversity programs are responsible for qualified women getting jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten due to bias, then the lack of that program means those women wouldn't have gotten those jobs. This is a double sword thing. With the program you might hire more qualified women, but also more less qualified women and you might prevent of hiring more qualified men. Because you have to hire wom…

If you were a woman, you might think that being hired under a diversity initiative is okay, given that the alternative is not to get the opportunity at all due to systemic discrimination in hiring.

I actually have constant fears about this, I always wonder because of programs like this if I am good enough or am I just a diversity hire.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#566

Post by DannyBee »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

This viewpoint completely ignores the internal consequences of doing what you suggest. It's in fact, very strange to me to simply assert "they got it wrong" without even knowing the internal state of affairs well enough, which, from what i can tell, you wouldn't (I googled and linkedin searched pretty hard, so if you do work there, my apologies!).

There was also clearly no winning externally no matter what they did. It would not have been dead and gone as long as their was a narrative to be used by someone!

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#567

Post by puranjay »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

They did screw up. But this guy had to be fired. Not because they had to make an example out of him, but because by publicly sharing his biases, he's ensured that a large part of Google wouldn't want to work with him.

It's a team sport after all.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#568

Post by nxmehta »

redthrowaway wrote: post #139

So, stating true, scientifically verified facts that challenge Google's official political ideology is now a fireable offence. This is insane. The speed at which this ideology has taken over SV is breathtaking, and a massive disincentive for anyone not already so inclined to work there.

> So, stating true, scientifically verified facts that challenge Google's official political ideology is now a fireable offence.

Did you read the memo? I don't think you did. Let me help you distinguish fact from speculation. Quote from the memo:

"Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men (also interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing)"

This is science supported by citations. Cool.

"These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics"

This is pure speculation without any supporting evidence. The document is littered with these unsupported conclusions that he arrives at which are several steps away from the actual science. I'd be happy to point them out at length.

It's extremely deceptive of you to say that he was fired for stating facts, while the minority of the points in his doc had any supporting facts whatsoever.

In fact, reports indicate that was fired for violating the Google code of conduct: http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/08/google-fires-james-damore.... If you'd like to present the argument for a) why he didn't violate the code of conduct or b) that's not why he was fired, by all means proceed. I'd be interested to see your evidence for that.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#569

Post by Kluny »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

> The worst anyone can say about his "screed" (give me a break) is that the guy was wrong and suffers from unconscious biases. Otherwise he was fairly civil and for this he is publicly and viciously crucified and demonized then thrown under a bus by Google.

100% agree. So much of the commentary on it reads like the writer either didn't read the memo or willfully misunderstood it. I don't agree with the memo either, but holy shit, people's reactions are so over the top.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#570

Post by eagsalazar2 »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

I can't imagine the rage this has unleashed within google. Google will be fundamentally fractured internally because of this one decision.
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