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Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

reuters.com

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Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#561

Post by TeMPOraL »

Zak wrote: post #451
TeMPOraL wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds fine at first glance, but it's actually ignoring two important points. 1. In this case, there's no opting out of personal protection without endangering innocents - as long as you're using public transportation infrastructure (i.e. roads), an unmaintained and/or uninsured car is a danger to others. There is public interest in ensuring such cars do not drive alongside regular traffic. 2. Such "protection" th…

an unmaintained and/or uninsured car is a danger to others In most jurisdictions, it is illegal to drive a car without a specific level of insurance or with safety-related maintenance issues independent of whether it is being used for some commercial purpose.

Commercially used cars have different insurance and maintenance standards; this was one of many issues with Uber - drivers lacking proper insurance.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#562

Post by mirimir »

gotothedoctor wrote: post #551
raleighm wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that's your view. I'm asking about its basis . Because what you're saying doesn't sound true, but the point matters (current context aside), so if you are right, I would like to know. > it may be permitted to mitigate punishment for humans--but not for corporations By whom or what, pursuant to what? Courts? Sentencing guidelines? Can you provide an example?

I understand what you are asking & why you think there is an easy answer that I'm not giving you, but unfortunately, there isn't one. There's no easy explanation that wouldn't require learning or understanding criminal & civil procedure first. I recognize that's not satisfying, but, well, law is overlapping, conflicting, and complicated. But no, civil disobedience is not about sentencing guidelines, and its not statu…

Let's say that there is no Uber, per se, just an open-source ride-sharing app, which coordinates drivers and riders. Then drivers (and riders, I suppose) could claim that they were engaging in civil disobedience, right?

And with Uber, the board and owners could similarly claim that they were personally engaging in civil disobedience, right? In the way that they managed Uber. However, I suspect that limited personal liability for corporate actions is a better deal.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#563

Post by InclinedPlane »

Uber has nowhere to hide here. Let's say you're ordinary schlubs who are engaging in illegal activity at work, what's the dumbest possible thing you could do? Leave evidence, of course, or worse, create evidence. Such as talking about it over email. That would be super, super dumb.

Let's look at the stratospheric levels of dumbness that Uber got up to here. This is a handy checklist of things not to do if you're engaging in criminal activity:

Document their crimes by talking about them openly on official, archived communication channels such as email.

Make the criminal activity official corporate policy.

Write software to support their criminal activity, with no reasonable believable cover story.

Give their criminal conspiracy a project codename.

Even garden variety street gangs aren't this idiotic. Imagine the police pulling someone in for questioning and opening up their bag to find a notebook. Page 1 of the notebook begins with this heading: "Project Keys: Smuggling Heroin into the United States". Page 2 of the notebook is an extended description of the exact methods used to smuggle heroin past border security. Page 3 of the notebook is a list of dates, times, and individuals who have smuggled heroin into the US. And so on. No drug dealer is that stupid, because that would put you in jail for a very long time if it fell into the hands of law enforcement. And yet, here we are, Uber really is that stupid.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#564

Post by InclinedPlane »

pyrophane wrote: post #67
nostromo wrote: post #44

I'm not a fan of Uber, but it seems like it's their right to decide who is allowed to use their service. (Baring protected classes, of course.) If a regulator started creating fake user accounts in order to scrape Uber's data, I don't see why Uber can't put a stop to that. And if a legislator is a vocal critic of Uber, I don't see why Uber should be forced to allow them to use their service.

That isn't really what happened here. Uber didn't block regulators from using their app, they populated the app with fake data to deceive them.

It populated the app with fake data to cause them to effectively not be able to use their service.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#565

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

bad-joke wrote: post #466
grandalf wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adding more middle men isn't a good thing Would the people who chose employment through them as a preferable choice to other options (or unemployment) agree with you?

>Would the people who chose employment through them as a preferable choice to other options (or unemployment) agree with you? It's not just about them. These drivers are effectively working for 50% of what other drivers are making. This drives down the median wage for all other drivers, because more middle men will be able to step in and outcompete independent drivers. Overall, you get more people working longer hour…

No, these drivers are effectively spending 50% of their revenue on their car. The other drivers have to buy and maintain a car themselves, which isn't free either.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#566

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

naskwo wrote: post #293

Last weekend, I visited Hamburg with my wife. I was surprised when I was told that I couldn't catch an Uber. However, on each German taxi (you know, the beige ones) there was a sticker prompting me to download the "EUTaxi" (or similarly named) app, which I did. Brilliant. I was able to summon a car within minutes, and this app also allows for paying via the app. Uber's biggest threat is, IMO, the creation of a well-w…

It's a huge difference when travelling. I really learned to appreciate Uber when I was in a foreign country, and could, _without local knowledge_, summon a car for a reasonable price and high confidence that I wouldn't get scammed.

Interestingly, the Uber was also consistently way cheaper (think "half or less") than unlicensed local bike taxis, so I suspect that it does provide a value to the drivers too (maybe not having to stand around on a corner hoping for a customer for hours).

Meanwhile, in Germany alone, you'd need to have multiple apps depending on which city you're in with little consistency between them.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#567

Post by Applejinx »

grandalf wrote: post #530
bad-joke wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Would the people who chose employment through them as a preferable choice to other options (or unemployment) agree with you? It's not just about them. These drivers are effectively working for 50% of what other drivers are making. This drives down the median wage for all other drivers, because more middle men will be able to step in and outcompete independent drivers. Overall, you get more people working longer hour…

> Overall, you get more people working longer hours for less compensation So then the solution to increasing wages is simply to ban hard-working, willing people from taking jobs! Brilliant. Let's force them to be unemployed just so that those who are allowed to work can make a bit more money. The biggest flaw in your argument is that it completely leaves out the value of experience. Those lower-wage drivers are not s…

"So then the solution to increasing wages is simply to ban hard-working, willing people from taking jobs!"

Yes, when the job is a systemic arbitrage of labor that externalizes costs and consequences in a way that's bad for society.

You might as well say 'so the solution to increasing wealth is simply to ban enterprising, daring people from robbing houses, stores and banks!' We're talking about the ways capital is exchanged in a dynamic with a labor and an owner class. To blindly assume the owner class cannot arbitrage labor is… kind of unobservant, when we've already got what they call a 'precariat'.

I get that some people want to believe a job as a fry cook (or Uber driver) is a step towards being a CEO, but there's already a CEO. These are not 'ladders of opportunity'. Most likely being unemployed or a dropout has higher odds of ending up the CEO.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#568

Post by JOnAgain »

Paul-ish wrote: post #493
naskwo wrote: post #293

Last weekend, I visited Hamburg with my wife. I was surprised when I was told that I couldn't catch an Uber. However, on each German taxi (you know, the beige ones) there was a sticker prompting me to download the "EUTaxi" (or similarly named) app, which I did. Brilliant. I was able to summon a car within minutes, and this app also allows for paying via the app. Uber's biggest threat is, IMO, the creation of a well-w…

Not defending Uber in particular, but another feature of the taxi apps is instant feedback about the driver. My father took a traditional taxi back home from the airport (SeaTac). The driver was on his cell phone the entire time and driving erratically. When my father went to the taxi board to report his behavior they told him "You have an appointment to stand before the board and make your case. It is Wednesday at 3…

This, 1,000,000 times over. There are shitty cabbies the world over. They are constantly trying to scam me. In markets I'm familiar with I catch them and call them out. In markets I'm not, how do I know?

Long way around or poor route selection, made up surcharges, putting a higher amount into a payment app than was on the meter, horrible riding experience due to BO, refusing to take me somewhere because it's too close, poor driving, or poor car condition. There is no feedback loop for these drivers.

Contrast with Uber, when I have a bad ride, I complain and usually get my money back, or at least part of it. I also feel pretty confident those drivers won't be allowed on the network after a few of those.

I realize there's another side to this, which is the drivers are overly penalized by poor reviews and some riders abuse that, but this seems a natural overreaction to the current situation of zero accountability. Uber, Lyft, or something else, whoever is providing the most pleasant riding experience at the cheapest price with convenience should win. From my experience, Taxi's are at the bottom of any list today.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#569

Post by [deleted] »

s73ver wrote: post #456
grandalf wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good thing though, isn't it?

Not entirely. Adding more middle men isn't a good thing, and depending on the terms for renting the car, they can be obscenely predatory. I know Uber and Lyft's rental terms are pretty shitty.

[deleted]

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#570

Post by martin_bech »

personlurking wrote: post #302
vadym909 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pulling an Uber on Uber

In Brazil, there are now Uber users, with fleets of cars, who no longer have to drive themselves, since these users rent the cars out to unemployed people (or those unable to have their own car) in exchange for a large part of the profits.

Its bad, but isnt it actually exactly the same why the current taximedalion and similar systems work today? A person or company buys the expensive right to drive a taxi service, and employs people to do just that?
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