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Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

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Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#551

Post by zmmmmm »

com2kid wrote: post #415
jacquesm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…

I'm just a low level drone here at MS, and I obviously am not involved in any important decisions, but I'd like to add that all the above things happened back when the current generation that works here was growing up. We were all on Slashdot, being outraged and angry 13 year olds. Except now my generation works here, and I think the changes (such as all the ones announced today!) are a good sign of that. At least si…

I know this opens a whole distracting side debate, but I incude Microsoft's campaign of sueing Android OEMs using [what I consider to be] a secret list of dodgy patents to be a continuation of their past evil behavior. I know there are a bunch of ways that can be debated and it's not my intention to start that debate, I just want to make the point that this view that it's all in the past that you are airing is something a significant number of people would dispute.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#552

Post by chiph »

tzs wrote: post #511
jacquesm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…

> - Netscape If you are referring to Microsoft's bundling of IE, that did not kill Netscape. It just buried the rotting corpse. Before IE was bundled with Windows, it was sold in stores as a boxed product, right next to Netscape's boxed product. Going head to head in retail software stores (Egghead, CompUSA), IE massively outsold Netscape. This is what killed Netscape. The reason IE outsold Netscape at retail was sim…

All those "Best on IE" and "Best viewed on Netscape" image buttons from back in the day... I thought I had forgotten about them, but you had to drag them up from the depths... ;)

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#553

Post by freehunter »

yarou wrote: post #521
freehunter wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A Microsoft distributor != Microsoft. 2. Every major tech company is involved with IV, so stop shitting on just Microsoft. Go troll and derail someone else's comments. 3. That's called selling. I'm not going to argue with a nutjob anymore. I'm happy you're happy, and your original comment wasn't offensive. What is offensive is people like you (including you) constantly pulling this shit. Just ignore it. Just move…

For the record, jacquesm has been civil while detailing his criticisms of Microsoft. The irony of your post is that you are behaving like an asshole, but you don't see it that way because you are blinded by your loyalty to a singular entity or opinion/viewpoint. It's ok to disagree with someone (though I disagree with pg's stance on down voting b/c you disagree), but it's not ok to resort to name calling just to prov…

I'm sorry, I don't see jacquesm being all that civil. It started off well enough, but they have been spreading FUD ever since. The links they're posting about how "evil" Microsoft has been this year have been argued against, but jacquesm never bothered acknowledging that. They just continued repeating "Microsoft is evil", which is exactly what has me so pissed.

If you don't try to follow Microsoft news, you might not see how frustrating it is. Everywhere on the Internet (save for Paul Thurrott's site) shuts down any Microsoft news immediately, drowning out any legitimate conversation with complaints about how evil Microsoft is. And if you challenge that by saying they work just like any other company, the troll says "yeah but I hate them all" followed with "this article is about Microsoft, not about Apple". Yet only a certain few companies manage to draw such ridiculous levels of trolling. Hell, look at the Amazon Echo announcement the other day. Two articles made it to the front page, and both were filled with "but NSA lol it's a trap".

If I'm an asshole, it's only because I bothered to call out jacquesm. I'm not going to apologize for anything I said. jacquesm is trolling this article with deception and bad intentions, ignoring any arguments they don't like or doesn't fit their worldview, and most certainly is not civilly defending their criticisms.

I really cannot stress my frustration enough, and I see it in others as well. If you don't use Microsoft products, it's easy to think you're just having fun and not doing anything wrong when you come into a thread and begin a discussion about everything Microsoft has done wrong. For some reason, Microsoft is one of the few companies where this is socially acceptable on the Internet, and people like me are shut down or, like you are doing, called a shill. I'm not loyal to Microsoft. I'm running Windows 7 in a RHEL 6 VM, using Firefox to post this. But guess what, my livelihood depends partially on supporting Microsoft products, so I follow them in the news.

All I want to do is make the point that coming into Microsoft threads and saying "Microsoft is evil" is not being a good citizen, not being productive, and not being civil. And if that's all you have to contribute to the thread, you're being an asshole.

I think it's hilarious that jacquesm can get away with focusing on the word "asshole" in my last comment, though, and ignoring the one point I've been repeating since the beginning:

Ignore it. Just move on. Go comment on articles that are interesting to you, involving companies or people or organizations you don't despise. Just stop fucking dragging down legitimate discussions with the line "they're evil", and stop pulling the defense "I just don't like evil companies, that's all". You're not innocent.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#554

Post by mb_72 »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #377
wanda wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://blog.xamarin.com/microsoft-and-xamarin-expand-global-... "Today we’re excited to take the partnership to the next level, by announcing: 1. Support for Visual Studio 2015 – Today, we released support for the Visual Studio 2015 Preview release, which includes Xamarin templates that make it easier to discover and download Xamarin from within the IDE. 2. Free Xamarin Starter Edition for Visual Studio Users – Today…

So the free Xamarin users will get Visual Studio support, but us with Xamarin Indie still have to use Xamarin Studio? I just want to use VS with Xamarin! But I guess that won't happen, because that's the only worthwhile reason to purchase their Business subscription (and the whole >5 employees clause).

Yes ... I'm in the same boat, however the 'core' of my app I developed as a PCL, the substantial part of developing for which I spend time in VS and using Resharper. Xamarin Studio is pretty OK, but VS is damn good to develop with.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#555

Post by sixothree »

eloisant wrote: post #186
jpgvm wrote: post #61

I'm a hardcore *nix guy but boy do I love me some C#. Up until now it's been the best language I have worked with but the worst platform due to it's lack of 'nice things' that we just expect from languages/ecosystems these days. Where 'nice things' is defined as being open-source, having open-source ecosystem of developer tools etc. This isn't so much the beginning (as good stuff has been happening for a couple of ye…

C# as a language is better than Java, but not as good as Scala.

Doesn't Scala run on the JVM, and isn't this announcement about porting the .Net runtime? And you're really drawing this comparison?

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#556

Post by quotemstr »

jacquesm wrote: post #147
OWaz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing comments like this “I'll never switch back to MS for what they've done in the past” always reminds me of this post from Hanselman http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx

- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…

Companies don't have agencies or personalities. People do. You're aware that a huge portion of the people responsible for the shenanigans of previous decades have left the company, right? Give the current crew credit.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#557

Post by katbyte »

jakevn wrote: post #343
jbooth wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You find C# harder than this? trait SeqLike[+A, +Repr] extends Any with IterableLike[A, Repr] with GenSeqLike[A, Repr] with Parallelizable[A, ParSeq[A]] { self => or def :+[B >: A, That](elem: B)(implicit bf: CanBuildFrom[Repr, B, That]): That

[SerializableAttribute] [ComVisibleAttribute(false)] public class Dictionary : IDictionary , ICollection >, IDictionary, ICollection, IReadOnlyDictionary , IReadOnlyCollection >, IEnumerable >, IEnumerable, ISerializable, IDeserializationCallback Both languages can be difficult to decipher. I do find that Scala's syntax is much more flexible, which can lead to more stumbling when trying to read code.

Its not as hard when you format it a little nicer (and when you have syntax colouring)

[SerializableAttribute] [ComVisibleAttribute(false)] public class Dictionary : IDictionary, ICollection>, IDictionary, ICollection, IReadOnlyDictionary, IReadOnlyCollection>, IEnumerable>, IEnumerable, ISerializable, IDeserializationCallback { ... }

And this is of course ignoring the fact you copied that from the documentation witch shows all interfaces the class implements. IDictionary also implements ICollection & IEnumerable so you wouldn't need to include them. So to actually implement this class it would more likely be

[SerializableAttribute] [ComVisibleAttribute(false)] public class Dictionary : IDictionary, IDictionary, IReadOnlyDictionary, ISerializable, IDeserializationCallback { ... }

maybe less

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#558

Post by ssmoot »

jbooth wrote: post #536
ssmoot wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to make a compelling argument to anyone that actually knows Scala, you need to drop the idea you can make it with scala.collections. Find another altar. This is a complete non-issue for the day-to-day Scala developer. Outside of some pretty extreme examples (scalaz maybe), I don't think I've actually ever seen someone else's source that implemented a custom collection. And you're purposefully trying to co…

Personally, I view the collections library as a showcase for how that language works when you're designing an API to be used for 3rd parties. If it's incomprehensible, that worries me. If the collections API is purposely trying to confuse people, blame the Scala team, not me.

That's just BS and given the size of your axe to grind, you have to know it.

Akka? Spray? ScalaUtils? Do they take effort to learn? Yes. Are they anything like scala.collections? No.

Why didn't you pick scala.concurrent? Or scala.util? Or any number of other packages? Why didn't you use the signatures in the official docs as-presented?

The Scala team goes out of their way to present something simple and easily digestible to most programmers, even the ones unfamiliar with Type Classes.

I mean, you basically just use a Seq like an immutable version of Ruby's Array and it just does what you want 99.999% of the time.

How often do you see people go on to propose that because much of Ruby's Array implementation would be incomprehensible to 90% of Ruby programmers that that makes Ruby a bad language? It's an entirely ridiculous metric.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#559

Post by breischl »

bad_user wrote: post #400
jbooth wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a random line from the Scala standard collections library: def :+[B >: A, That](elem: B)(implicit bf: CanBuildFrom[Repr, B, That]): That This is from the standard collections library. In Java, I've got a List.add function. In case it's not clear from the name, 'add', I can click through to the implementation and it's pretty obvious what's happening. In Scala, I've got +, ++, +:, :+, and a bunch of other nonsen…

For a Scala developer that signature makes sense. You want to add an element of type B to your collection with elements of type A, however the addition of an element of type B may not be supported (e.g. you may want to add a String to a BitSet and get in return a plain Set[Any]), so the above works only as long as there is a builder available that can build the new collection. The function also works on covariant col…

>>And I really wish that C# would grow up a little in this regard, as modern programming languages need immutable collections as well, with a nice API to go along with it May I suggest the Immutable Collection library from Microsoft? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn385366(v=vs.110).a...

Admittedly not part of the core library, but installing a NuGet package is pretty darn easy.

>>This is what happens when you pass judgement unto things you don't understand ;)

[edit: Guess I should've refreshed the page to see the prior response before writing this. Apologies.]

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#560

Post by [deleted] »

freehunter wrote: post #309
smacktoward wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Hanselman's blog a lot, but I found that post pretty disappointing. The reason there are a lot of people running around saying "Microsoft killed my pappy!" is because Microsoft actually did kill a lot of people's pappies, back in the day. When someone comes into town and shoots your pappy, it's not something you forget or forgive easily. The burden is on Microsoft to prove that they're not the same company as…

At this point there is literally nothing Microsoft can do to win these people over. They've done everything they could do short of porting the Windows UI to Linux (and even then... this and Powershell brings it pretty close). They're a huge contributor to open source, they support Linux pretty heavily on Azure, they open sourced their .NET as seen here, they listened to their customers on Windows 10, they're doing gr…

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