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Online age verification is the hill to die on

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Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#551

Post by domador »

cvoss wrote: post #512
sailfast wrote: post #277

It’s not online age verification. It’s online identity verification. Would you vote for that? Prove who you are to visit this website? Would you do it to access Hacker News? Your newspaper? Didn’t think so.

Neither HN nor my newspaper run content that needs age-gating.

You would think so but some future authoritarian or paternalistic government might disagree. Maybe the government will say that a newspaper should not report on the poorly built bridge that collapsed and killed some people. News of disasters (or death in any form) might be considered two sensitive for children to accidentally be exposed to through a newspaper.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#552

Post by zeafoamrun »

sysreq_ wrote: post #463
Nevermark wrote: post #410

This is why we need verification technology that protects identity. Implemented as anonymous verification, without distinguishing between adult age, or permissioned by parent. That solution doesn't negate parental freedom of choice, it facilitates it. I am baffled at how often the "they don't want it, because of their ulterior surveillance motivations, therefore it isn't a solution" argument is made. "They" don't wan…

I think part of the issue people are missing is what the late Randy Pausch would call a “head fake”. My specific autism is not privacy, digital security, none of that. So I will be honest about my gaps. But from my little corner what this is about is geopolitics - specifically a potential war with China. If you zoom out to the macro level first understand the reason China setup the Great Firewall. Why countries like…

Agree with all of this. It's fascinating how social media is this soup of the most virulent propaganda imaginable for every possible interest. It's a FFA between all these different powers and you are just trying to keep up with friends and watch cat videos. That they are targeting the current largest empire makes a lot of sense.

I think at an individual level the best thing to do is to opt out of this stuff and not use these corporate systems with algorithmic feeds. Only those will have the intrusive age verification anyway.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#553

Post by TFNA »

frmersdog wrote: post #467
scotty79 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ID system should be based on commercial bank. If you need to prove your identity or whatever about yourself just tell them to ask your bank and bank will ask you which information about yourself you are willing to share with whoever requested to confirm something about you. When ID is tied to your bank account you guard it like you guard your bank account. Because it is the same thing. This will drastically lower the…

>Banks I wonder how many months until this suggestion becomes slightly embarrassing. I barely want my banks to know what I buy and to be responsible for my money. I really don't want them knowing everywhere I go online. Especially when "my" bank goes under and all of my data gets sold off to whoever takes it over.

> I barely want my banks to know what I buy and to be responsible for my money. I really don't want them knowing everywhere I go online.

Bank ID systems, at least the ones I’m familiar with, don't work like that. Your bank confirms your identity to the authentication provider, and the authentication provider sends you on to the site you are logging into. The bank does not see the site you are visiting.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#554

Post by Nursie »

nirava wrote: post #254
nonethewiser wrote: post #242

Im completely OK with verifying someone's age before distributing age-restricted services to them. That's what an age restricted service is, and obviously we shouldnt let porn companies distribute porn to minors (its already illegal most place). Just dont use porn, facebook, online gambling etc. if you dont want to share your identity. I can see why it's unfortunate but the idea posited that that it's somehow illegal…

Private companies now can link all your online activities to you. Not an advertisement ID, but directly to you and your loans and your health data and whatever they're selling in the black market. Every data breach is a 100 times. It was already almost possible to directly know about you by buying data, now it's easier. The point of this is not to verify age really. It is to verify identity. There's no way to prove s…

> There's no way to prove someone is some age without presenting a legal ID.

Sure there is.

Verifiable Credentials and other similar standards allow this to be delegated in such a way that there is no need to present ID or even let the site know who you are. The site can issue a request to a third party that simply provides back "Yep, we attest that this request was approved by someone over 18".

Depending on the exact scheme, the request may forward you to a broker, who will then forward the request (and your web session) on to the trusted third party of your choice which has already performed ID verficiation (usually a bank). The bank sends a signed response back to the broker, the broker sends a signed response back to the requesting site.

Is it perfect? Maybe not 100%, the broker knows there was a request from a restricted site forwarded to a given bank. The bank knows you have approved a request. There is likely to be an identifier of some sort sent from the site all the way through to the back-end so you know you're not being MITM'd. But in theory nobody should have the full picture.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#555

Post by lynx97 »

Nursie wrote: post #537
jonplackett wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is that this whole push for age verification is nothing to do with actually stopping kids seeing the content. If it was then this kind of solution would be being legislated for. It’s just about making everyone identifiable.

> The reason is that this whole push for age verification is nothing to do with actually stopping kids seeing the content. The reason that mainstream politicians are pushing is because the public wants something done to protect their kids. Are there likely to be bad actors pushing for it for nefarious reasons as well ? Sure. Are the 'solutions' inadequate and often tech- and privacy-illiterate? Absolutely. Is the ent…

So, why are those "real people" actually not willing to do their job? I am so pissed with parents who think the government is supposed to solve their own inability to raise a child.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#556

Post by TFNA »

numpad0 wrote: post #461
cassepipe wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I know about feudalism, this is a non-obvious statement. Care to develop ?

The proposed system moves sources of identity from the nation to private banks under it. So banks own people. Propose a financial regulation to the national congress/parliament and you stop existing, digitally or potentially physically as well. That's feudalism. Or Chinese struggles-of-nations warlord era situation which is often grouped up into that concept as close enough things.

Banks can be state-owned as well as private. Moreover, some countries have a particular bank that serves all citizens, even if they would not be able to bank elsewhere.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#557

Post by illiac786 »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #211

THe government shouldn't be raising anyone's children, that's what parents are for. If you're a bad parent, your kids will get access to bad things and could become an adult failure. The future of your family and your legacy is up to you, not the government. We don't need age verification to restrict the social darwinism of raising children.

I do agree fundamentally, but you are making a lot of assumptions about the parents here. Many do not have parents able to do this. Do they not deserve some protection against such content?

Blaming the parents for their failures is not going to help the kids.

That being said the current approach really has nothing to do with protecting kids and everything with tracking us.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#558

Post by TFNA »

EmbarrassedHelp wrote: post #498
jrcplus wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elaborate please

The anti-tampering measures require banning rooting/jailbreaking, banning the installation of non-Google/Apple approved operating systems (ex: GrapheneOS), and require that you install Google Play Services/IOS equivalent. The app also requires that you first send your personal information to a closed source backend, in exchange for easily trackable tokens used as "proof".

> banning the installation of non-Google/Apple approved operating systems (ex: GrapheneOS)

Do you have a link where I could read more about this? GrapheneOS is known for being the alternative Android where many bank apps in the EU still work, and this is the first I have heard that the age verification app definitely wouldn’t run on GrapheneOS.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#559

Post by jenadine »

thin_carapace wrote: post #446
bluGill wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is adult content? I know parents who have no problem with their kids seeing porn. I know parents who give their kids a beer. I know parents who take their kids to violent movies. I used to know parents who will give their kids cigarettes. Most parents I know will disagree with their kids doing one of the above. I know songs that were played on the radio in 1960 that would not be allowed today, even though today…

i can make arguments as to potential merits of kids having a beer/cigarette, listening to swear words, or witnessing casual violence. i cant make an argument for letting kids see hardcore pornography in any capacity.

I have hard time imagining what is that argument, that apply to the thing you mention but that doesn't apply to hardcore pornography.

Or do you also think we should forbid hardcore pornography also for adults?

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#560

Post by Nursie »

lynx97 wrote: post #555
Nursie wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason is that this whole push for age verification is nothing to do with actually stopping kids seeing the content. The reason that mainstream politicians are pushing is because the public wants something done to protect their kids. Are there likely to be bad actors pushing for it for nefarious reasons as well ? Sure. Are the 'solutions' inadequate and often tech- and privacy-illiterate? Absolutely. Is the ent…

So, why are those "real people" actually not willing to do their job? I am so pissed with parents who think the government is supposed to solve their own inability to raise a child.

Well for a start not all of them are very tech savvy, and we've built a world in which tech is essential to their day to day lives, including for their kids.

If school demands the kids have a variety of devices to do their work, and they have no idea how to lock those down to exclude (for example) social media services that we know have been designed to be as addictive as possible, can you not see why they might want someone to intervene?

(edit: Beyond that there are also tons of bad reasons, I'm not going to try and justify them. There are a lot of bad parents and just in general people who are not firing on all cylinders out there. And many of them absolutely love a government regulation to be brought in for just about anything.

We can and should argue with these people and point out why they're wrong. But saying it's "nothing to do with actually stopping kids seeing the content" fails here too.)

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