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Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

writings.hongminhee.org

551–560 of 623 posts

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#551

1) Legality and morality are obviously different and unrelated concepts. More people should understand that. 2) Copyright was the wrong mechanism to use for code from the start, LLMs just exposed the issue. The thing to protect shouldn't be creativity, it should be human work - any kind of work. The hard part of programming isn't creativity, it's making correct decisions. It's getting the information you need to make…

> If LLMs are not derivative works of the training data then why is so much training data needed? If you went to school for 12-16 years, that's a lot of training. Does that mean anything you produce is a derivative work?

I see this argument sometimes and it's annoying because:

1) People phrase it as a question even when they've already made up their mind (whether that's your case or not).

2) It implicitly assumes that humans and algorithms are the same. They are not - humans have rights and free will, algorithms don't. Humans cannot be bought or sold, etc.

To your question:

a) If you're asking whether teachers should get compensated according to how good a job they do, I think so. They are very often undervalued, especially the good ones - but of course that means the job attracts people who do it because they enjoy it (and are therefore more likely to be good at it) rather than those who chose jobs according to money and then do the bare minimum.

b) There's a critical difference - consent. Teachers consented to their knowledge being used by those they taught. I did not consent to my code being used for training LLMs. In fact I purposefully chose a licence (AGPL) which in any common sence interpretation prohibits this used unless the resulting model is licensed under the same license - you can use my work only if you give back. Maybe there's a hole in the law - then it should be closed.

I am now gonna pose a question to you in turn.

Do you think people should be compensated for the full transitive value of their work?

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be insane for aerospace software, where you might spend most of that time getting the code certified (required to break the $0 revenue threshold), let alone paying back your costs and then making an actual profit. Meanwhile, there are cases where copyright of more than 2 years is overkill. I don't know what, but it seems like we need some sort of mechanism for variable-length IP duration is needed.

Is copyright meaningful for aerospace software? I'm largely unfamiliar with that domain but I have trouble imagining that (for example) Boeing cares much about people redistributing or hacking on the control software for a 777. How would that impact their bottom line? I could understand for medical devices maybe but even then it seems like the software is a tiny part of the overall cost of a given design. A competito…

Nope, it falls more under trade secrets than copyright.

If you do something that requires stealing the code (publishing it, selling it, etc) the company can legally fuck you up.

Now, once it's in tbe wind, it becomes almost impossible to pursue from a practical point of view, as any implementer can claim trade secrets to avoid showing you the code.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be removing IP law entirely, not strengthening it to cover entire classes of problem even when implemented entirely differently. Same for anyone trying to claim "colorful monster creatures" as innately Pokemon IP. Just because someone climbed a mountain first doesn't mean they own it forever. Nobody should be honouring any of these claims. Nor should we be treating AI models themselves as respected IP. They…

I would be okay with just keeping it but limiting it severely. If you release music and you can't sell enough albums in 20 years, that's not societies problem. A lot of artists release albums every 1 - 3 years anyway, so they're always selling some records, or were before streaming became the way to "own" music. Most make their money off of concerts anyway. For movies and shows, charge and increasing fee to renew the…

We could also just have some of the rights go away after X amount of years. Maybe after so much time it's still not legal to copy the original work, but it is legal to make a cover song, or a derivative work using the same character. At another point maybe it's no longer to illegal to copy for free, but it is still illegal to sell without permission.

I personally think we should have shorter limits for non-creator owners of copyright, and for creators it should be like 20 years or death whichever comes last. I also think compulsory licensing should exist for everything.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#554
post #530
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the output regurgitates some other legal entity’s boilerplate licence agreement? Is the output automatically licensed to that entity?

It's wild to me that there haven't been more court cases to answer questions like those being asked in this thread. No one knows.

It's new, fast-moving technology, and the courts are slow and expensive.

It would take two stubborn businesses with a lot of money deciding that it is better to battle it out than focus on their business. Something like IBM v SCO or Oracle v Google.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#555
I'm specifically worried about gating trained data where publicly accessible information is blocked/opted-out. If we're opening up Pandora's Box with genAI and training data, we may as well give it what is accessible to the average user. Its going to end up having the same issues a user with implicit knowledge or memories would have anyway.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#556
post #38

This is only worth arguing about because software has value. Putting this in context of a world where the cost of writing code is trending to 0, there are two obvious futures: 1. The cost continues to trend to 0, and _all_ software loses value and becomes immediately replaceable. In this world, proprietary, copyleft and permissive licenses do not matter, as I can simply have my AI reimplement whatever I want and not…

There was a recent ruling that LLM output is inherently public domain (presumably unless it infringes some existing copyright). In which case it's not possible to use them to "reimplement everything we can as copyleft".

You could reimplement it as public domain on your machine, and then edit it by hand and copyleft your own edits.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#559
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having this discussion involves blasting others for not considering it. Consider the rest of the paragraph you quoted: > But law only says what conduct it will not prevent—it does not certify that conduct as right. Aggressive tax minimization that never crosses into illegality may still be widely regarded as antisocial. A pharmaceutical company that legally acquires a patent on a long-generic drug and raises the pric…

If the discussion inherently cannot be had without blasting innocent bystanders, I don't think it's a discussion worth having. It might even be morally abhorrent to have such a discussion in the first place!

They're not innocent bystanders: if you take the premise of the article seriously, their actions should be criticised. Please consider re-reading the article more slowly.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#560
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good news! LLM output cannot be copyrighted. Everything that an LLM produces is automatically, irrevocably, in the public domain.

What if you used the LLM to generate works that were already copyrighted?

Is Pierre Menard really the author of his Quixote?
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