Live data from Hacker News

If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

english.elpais.com

551–560 of 1001 posts

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#551
post #228
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxing wealth is much harder on a practical and algorithmic level than taxing income. But either way, taxing the tool is micromanaging the problem, and some powerful people cynically promote that because they can aim the details away from themselves.

Switzerland taxes wealth instead of capital gains (except for professional investors). In some ways taxing wealth is quite simple, because wealth is already meticulously recorded via contracts and owners go out of their way to estimate the magnitude of their wealth for example to borrow money or for other financial and economic obligations. Another approach would be to tax capital gains at the same rate as income and…

In general I agree, but it's worth noting that rich people are also very interested in finding tax loopholes.

I heard that, at least in the US, you can avoid capital tax gain by just... never selling. Borrow against your wealth instead.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your argument were true we should set taxes on capital to zero, which is quite obviously a bad idea.

No, that's been a common proposal from economists pretty much since people started examining how economies work. Some places do have a capital gains tax of zero. Switzerland is one of them, and Switzerland is economically more successful than the rest of Europe. Tax is one of those issues where there are actually correct and incorrect answers, thanks to many hundreds of years of active experimentation and relatively…

The Switzerland model is unique in several ways, both in its history, which cannot be replicated, and in embracing of...questionable financial services.

It's unclear that the model can be replicated generally, let alone whether it should. Importantly, there may not be sufficient demand for banking services like the Swiss provide.

Your three step plan says nothing about how much should be taxed at the personal vs corporate income level, or on the gap between capital gains and labor income taxes.

I'm not arguing for higher tax revenue overall. I don't believe in that, but I also wouldn't even need to make the argument even if I believed in it.

The simpler, more defensible argument is that taxes on capital gains must be much closer to income taxes. Historically they were, even in the US, and we seemed to be fine.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real issue should not be whether they're paying the government. The issue is whether they're paying us for taking the human content of the last two thousand years and baking it into their generators. How do we get royalties on this, like our share of the oil proceeds if we were citizens of Qatar? How do we trade our share of the contribution? There's twenty years of my posting on Reddit, Slashdot, HN, and other f…

This nails my primary frustration with all gen AI - why are we all seemingly okay with a few massive companies and their billionaire CEOs training models on the output of all human civilization and then selling it back to us with the promise of putting all workers out of a job? How’s that not theft?

Well, you as a human train and live as a human on the output of all human civilization and if you are very efficient put people out of work. 99% of human jobs were physical labor and now machines do the work of thousands with one human superviser (oil tanker, machine loom, dump truck, train, etc). If humans are put completely out of the loop, that is a new problem for humans (super intelligent AI that takes over will likely be very bad for us) but avoiding that problem is another ball of wax.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#554
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland taxes wealth instead of capital gains (except for professional investors). In some ways taxing wealth is quite simple, because wealth is already meticulously recorded via contracts and owners go out of their way to estimate the magnitude of their wealth for example to borrow money or for other financial and economic obligations. Another approach would be to tax capital gains at the same rate as income and…

Capital gains are risky to generate. Many investments completely fail and when that happens, investors get very little tax relief. If you increase capital gains tax, the more risky ideas will no longer be viable investment vehicles even though some of them would have been successful. Across the entire economy, the net effect will be less innovation, stagnation, and loss of power relative to foreign countries. Tax rat…

> Many investments completely fail and when that happens, investors get very little tax relief

I don't really believe it. Investment is always incentivized by tax breaks and other political gifts. But once things turn bad it's the citizen's turn to pay for it. Fire all staff? We pay for unemployment. Pollute the soil? We pay for cleanup. Empty the water table? Guess who's gonna depend on the state for clean water...

> To change them purely based on vibes would be catastrophically stupid.

Please tell that to every neo liberal in my country. Reducing taxes on the rich seems to be their passtime, while every time some kind of capital gain is mentioned, everyone and their dogs become experts in economics and can tell you it's folly.

> Please don't vote.

Please don't look down on others.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#555
post #184

No, not the AI. Just the owner of means of production like AI. The fact that capital owners successfully avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems is, in my view, one of the fundamental problems of our time.

> The fact that capital owners successfully avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems is Are you sure capital owners do not contribute to our states and financial systems? For instance, Jeff Bezos is worth $238 billion even though Amazon has a $2.6 trillion market cap. That's $2.4 trillion of value created for other shareholders plus trillions more for employees, customers, suppliers, gover…

I would say they dont contribute. I don't think Jeff Bezos has contributed anything positive, at all. He's managed to become insanely rich in a system that rewards bad behavior, so what? All that value isnt doing anything.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taxing wealth is much harder on a practical and algorithmic level than taxing income. I find this argument somewhat unconvincing. Where is most of the wealth? In hard assets, such as real estate and financial assets, such as stocks and bonds. The former are very difficult to hide, for obvious reasons. As for the latter, the ownership of every single share is recorded in large databases (e.g. DTCC, Clearstream and E…

It really comes down to valuation. The unit of account for tax is the currency of the relevant sovereign. Most contracts for income are denominated in that unit of account, even if it is not there is often a highly liquid market (FX) between units of account. Most wealth is not stored in assets where the unit of account is that of the sovereign. This counts double for assets with a physical location. This isn't somet…

I don't get it. Can you explain in simpler terms?

My understanding is that you say that taxing things denominated in a foreign currency is difficult? But why? I already pay taxes on my capital gains denominated in a foreign currency (for example dollars). There are official government exchange rates for tax reasons, published daily. I don't see anything to hand wave here, because there's no problem.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that capital owners successfully avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems is Are you sure capital owners do not contribute to our states and financial systems? For instance, Jeff Bezos is worth $238 billion even though Amazon has a $2.6 trillion market cap. That's $2.4 trillion of value created for other shareholders plus trillions more for employees, customers, suppliers, gover…

I would say they dont contribute. I don't think Jeff Bezos has contributed anything positive, at all. He's managed to become insanely rich in a system that rewards bad behavior, so what? All that value isnt doing anything.

Absolutely. Creating value in the stock market is not the same thing as creating value for society. Are we really better off as a society now that amazon has closed down all the mom & pop stores? Are we really better off as a society now that the entire internet is centralized around AWS? It made a lot of people rich, but the internet sucks more than ever

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#558
post #184

No, not the AI. Just the owner of means of production like AI. The fact that capital owners successfully avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems is, in my view, one of the fundamental problems of our time.

> The fact that capital owners successfully avoid contributing to the financing of our states and social systems is Are you sure capital owners do not contribute to our states and financial systems? For instance, Jeff Bezos is worth $238 billion even though Amazon has a $2.6 trillion market cap. That's $2.4 trillion of value created for other shareholders plus trillions more for employees, customers, suppliers, gover…

You are assuming:

1. Value created for other shareholders is a good thing

2. $ "value" directly translates to actual resources or services

3. These employees and customers would not get the same or more value elsewhere if Amazon did not exist

4. This "value" created by Amazon is better compared to the alternative (such as more resources used locally instead of global trade)

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's been a common proposal from economists pretty much since people started examining how economies work. Some places do have a capital gains tax of zero. Switzerland is one of them, and Switzerland is economically more successful than the rest of Europe. Tax is one of those issues where there are actually correct and incorrect answers, thanks to many hundreds of years of active experimentation and relatively…

> Some places do have a capital gains tax of zero. Switzerland is one of them, and Switzerland is economically more successful than the rest of Europe. Tax Switzerland is a bad example because they tax capital more directly. In the form of a wealth tax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Switzerland#Wealth... GP said setting taxes on capital to zero was a bad idea. Switzerland has only set capital gains taxes…

I live in Switzerland. It's an excellent example of a place without a capital gains tax, because it doesn't have one. I didn't say it doesn't have other taxes!

The type of tax matters a lot. The reason capital gains taxes are bad is that they discourage investment, but investment is how you create wealth. "Creating wealth" is ultimately a synonym for creating material progress. Voters like progress, and so this is a very simple and direct argument, which is why most countries that have capital gains tax it at a lower rate than income. Wealth taxes have different incidence and change incentives in different ways. Basically, they discourage having wealth rather than creating it.

It can create its own problems. Switzerland has had big problems in the past with the wealth tax discouraging the creation of tech startups. The reason is that if you create a company then sell some equity in it to investors, that creates a valuation of your company which is then considered wealth, even though it's theoretical wealth and not liquid. In other words, doing a big VC raise can land the company founders with an unpayably massive tax bill: they literally don't have the money to send the government because it's only paper wealth.

To fix that the Swiss tax authorities had to introduce a new rule that says if you have ownership of a startup, this doesn't count towards the wealth tax. What exactly is a "startup" and what differentiates it from other kinds of business? Whether it is "innovative". What counts as innovative? The taxman decides. That means creating a startup in Switzerland is quite risky as if some random bureaucrat decides your product isn't truly innovative and you do a big VC raise you could be personally bankrupted (or you have to use some of the investors money to pay yourself out each year, which is then taxed as income too pushing you into a much higher tax bracket, etc). There are lots of other practical problems with the wealth tax.

Tax incidence is complicated!

In practice the Swiss approach works because:

- The wealth tax is quite low

- This "innovative startup" hack seems to work out in practice even if it's concerning in theory (tech startups aren't the only way to create a lot of wealth)

- Wealth taxes discourage all kinds of wealth equally, so the effects are diffuse and they don't specifically discourage e.g. getting promoted over company formation over inheritances, which is a distortion a lot of other approaches do create.

Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I'm following your thought on capital gains tax. Capital Gain tax occurs when you sell an asset for more than you paid for it. AI (software) is not an asset, and I'm not sure how you'd sell it. Computers and robots are assets (although they typically depreciate not appreciate.) Either way capital gains tax is applied to the asset not the productivity of the asset . The productivity in turn is taxed as pa…

If your brokerage account is large enough that most of your change-in-net-worth happens in unrealized capital gains, your tax rate is 0%. That's pathological at the best of times and in a "capital wins" scenario it's positively thermonuclear.

By that logic, you should also consider what happens if the brokerage account goes negative. Are you willing to do that?
Post reply on HN