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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#551

Post by taylodl »

collinmcnulty wrote: post #143
jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

This view seems to be common, but I think it misses what incredible alchemy comes from making people who come in for “job training” (like I did) spend 4 years in close proximity with research, academic freedom, liberal arts, and at least an attempt at some kind of intellectual idealism separate from economic incentive. It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well by having a middle c…

The real issue is we've largely abandoned the public university from a funding standpoint. Now the costs of a public institution is beyond the ability for many Americans to pay. The unstable job market has led many to believe the risks outweigh the rewards.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#552

Post by rebolek »

somenameforme wrote: post #492
bildung wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd. Are you sure? They are advancing, sure, put look what they paid for to achieve this: 300k dead, 700k wounded, depletion of their souvereign wealth fund, 20%+ inflation, lower oil production and so on.

I think literally nobody knows the price either side is paying right now. And I do mean literally, including Trump, Putin, and Zelensky. The fog of war applies to participants, let alone outsiders who are basing our views on figures and claims that obviously going to be driven heavily by propaganda. But beyond this, I don't think this war is about Ukraine anymore than a war in Taiwan will be about Taiwan. It's little…

Thank you for repeating Russian propaganda. But the truth is that Ukraine is sovereign nation and has every right to decide their future and give a fuck about Russia feelings. Russia is the aggressor and blaming anything on NATO is laughable propaganda.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#553

Post by ChicagoDave »

This was the intended result in the 80’s when Reagan destroyed public college subsidies.

White rich people hated competition from poor and brown people. That whole even playfield thing was their nightmare.

Ask the rich families if college degrees are still important. You’ll get a different answer.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#554

Post by collinmcnulty »

torginus wrote: post #521
fwipsy wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colleges used to be much more affordable even though they covered liberal arts and engineering together. Are all colleges unaffordable? Do all colleges require engineering students to take liberal arts? Maybe this isn't universal, maybe it's just that prestigious colleges all have strong liberal arts programs, either out of tradition or because it's required for being seen as prestigious. Liberal arts courses arguabl…

Liberal arts is a huge grab bag of courses with varying rigor, quality, appeal and difficulty. One of the best courses I had in college was a metalworking course during which I learned to weld. But like many (engineering) students, for most of the liberal arts credit, I went with stuff where I could get the best possible grade with the least possible work.

I did too, but still managed to gain a lifelong appreciation for live theatre.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#555

Post by hylaride »

artursapek wrote: post #495
somenameforme wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think very few, if any, countries in the world would be stronger than what we turned Ukraine into. You have a massive army being replenished by a constant slew of bodies, to the point of forcefully dragging people in off the streets, and then being armed with hundreds of billions of dollars in Western arms. But what gives Ukraine a particular superpower is their logistics. Most people don't realize is that war is e…

When would the real death tolls be revealed? When Ukraine does a census?

For Ukraine, war deaths would likely be a footnote compared to emigration when a new census is eventually completed (I don't mean to sound cavalier, but am trying to put things into perspective). An estimated 20% of their population has left since the start of the full scale invasion - ~10 million people - by now they've settled into new lives abroad (my 8 year old daughter's class here in Canada has 3 kids from Ukraine alone).

Ukraine is going to have some painful demographic issues to deal with when the dust settles (and I am cheering for them!).

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#556

Post by chongli »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #322
venturecruelty wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what we're doing now is? Telling 17-year-olds to take on six figures of debt and then replacing them with ChatGPT while making it impossible to discharge their debt?

Just because Comp Sci and many STEM degrees in general are losing value does not mean that university overall is not worthwhile.

The question is not “does it provide any value whatsoever?” The question is “does a degree provide surplus value to society, given its costs?”

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#557

Post by vel0city »

mystraline wrote: post #486
pjmlp wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important fact, that people overlook, is that its industrial capacity was never bombed during the war, and Pearl Harbour was the only time the country got directly attacked.

When was Pearl Harbor attacked by Japan? Now, when did Hawai'i become a state? And when and by whom was their king deposed? > Pearl Harbour was the only time the country got directly attacked. Uh, which country again was it? (Edit: -4, really? Damn, people are salty about actually knowing history versus going against the US public school system's propaganda that "We (royal) were attacked". In reality, the occupier fo…

> Uh, which country again was it?

Hawai'i became a territory of the United States on April 30, 1900. It had been US territory for 40 years. One can point to the US doing bad things to make that the state of affairs, but it was decidedly US territory for a long time at that point. It seems you need to learn history, or you're just being willfully obtuse about things.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#558

Post by somenameforme »

tim333 wrote: post #542
somenameforme wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think literally nobody knows the price either side is paying right now. And I do mean literally, including Trump, Putin, and Zelensky. The fog of war applies to participants, let alone outsiders who are basing our views on figures and claims that obviously going to be driven heavily by propaganda. But beyond this, I don't think this war is about Ukraine anymore than a war in Taiwan will be about Taiwan. It's little…

I don't agree on the Russia Ukraine motivations. Ukraine is not part of NATO and was not going to become part of NATO. There were already two NATO countries bordering Russia near Moscow and St P if NATO had wanted to invade which they had no thoughts of doing. Russia lies constantly on this stuff. I think they basically regarded Ukraine their land as part of the Russian empire they were restoring.

It's not about immediate intentions, but about strategic options. Imagine Russia decided to form a military alliance with Mexico with the expected intention of deploying weapons on the Mexican border. If Mexico agreed to this, it would take approximately 0 seconds before the US invaded them under some whimsical pretext (drug gangs probably) and overthrew their government to prevent this. In fact this is, more or less, what the Cuban Missile Crisis was where we were willing to bring the world to the brink of nuclear annihilation over it, and that was an even lighter weight version of this event since there isn't even a land route from Cuba to the US obviously!

But in this scenario would you think Russia deploying weapons in Mexico is a precursor to them invading? Or that the US would be worried about that? Obviously not. Neither was Cuba. But it gives an adversarial power a tremendous strategic edge, while you get less than nothing out of it since it reduces your 'power' in the relative strategic balance of countries.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#559

Post by chongli »

piperswe wrote: post #261
crossbody wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. In large part due to Baumol's cost disease - higher overall incomes in productive sector like tech drive up costs for sector with low productivity growth - so professors and admin staff in US make 2x salaries compared to Europe (cost of living adjusted). Also, have you seen EU student amenities and dorm sizes?

Is it necessary for there to be student amenities paid for by the school? Why should tuition pay for a bunch of ancillary nice-to-haves instead of, ya know, the education?

Because schools are in competition with one another to attract students (who have the ability to broadcast applications to multiple schools). The campus life factor is a major part of a student’s decision.

Put yourself into the student’s shoes. If you had the choice between two schools of otherwise roughly equal academic reputation but one offered luxurious residences while the other housed students like medieval monks, which would you choose?

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#560

Post by CMay »

firesteelrain wrote: post #469
closewith wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, as Devil's Advocate, you could say the same about the US. It was unable to conquer Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria.

This is a false equivalence. The United States was not trying to “conquer” those countries in the territorial sense that Russia attempted with Ukraine. Those conflicts were limited political or counterinsurgency objectives fought under strict constraints, often without public support, and with no intention of annexation. Comparing that to a conventional invasion aimed at seizing and absorbing a neighbor’s territory i…

I'd also add that the Vietnamese LOVE the US.
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