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.NET 10

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET 10

#551

Post by tracker1 »

parliament32 wrote: post #539
achr2 wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C#/dotNet has Ahead of Time compilation that works very well with containerization. Obviously there are still overheads for the AoT runtime, but it is pruned.

AOT would solve a lot of these problems if it didn't have show-stopping restrictions like "you can't use reflection" and "you can't use native sessions". https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/deploying/nati... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/n...

Reflection doesn't work with AOT because there is nothing left to reflect on... it's compiled away. You can't use reflection with C, C++ or Rust either, doesn't mean you can't use them for useful things.

Re: .NET 10

#552

Post by tracker1 »

parliament32 wrote: post #423
tracker1 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use the same base image, is it really as bad as you're making it out to be? I understand that you're getting a roughly 100mb dist directory for a .Net web app, and that it uses quite a bit of ram.. but people also use Node and Java which have similar issues. Don't get me wrong on this, I'd like to use Rust+Axum a lot more and C# a bit less.. but I don't dislike C#.

The runtime alone is a bit over 200mb, and that doesn't include additional packages you'll most likely need. That being said, I'd much prefer to deploy a C# application over Node or Java, no argument there. But saying "I wish more startups were using C#" makes me wince. C# seems well-suited for the monolith-architected VM-image-deployed strategy of the early 2000s, but it's pretty close to being the exact opposite of…

But the runtime is in the base image, so that is shared across all deployed services on the a single host system(s). So it's much less of an issue, also, the entire runtime isn't loaded into RAM for every application. From Task manager in windows, I'm running a local app in debug/dev mode and it's taking 226mb ram, which is a lot compared to IIRC well under 20mb for the last rust-axum project I wrote.

That said, you get a lot of functionality in the box and nearby out of that extra resource usage and it doesn't really grow by much under load.

Beyond that, there's nothing particularly wrong about having a mostly monolithic backend for a lot of things, I would say most applications are better served starting with a more monolithic backend in a mono-repo with the FE.

Re: .NET 10

#553

Post by tracker1 »

whizzter wrote: post #391
tracker1 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK pinvoke (DllImport) works today just like it always has if you want to create FFI calls to C libraries. It's not windows only for sure.

That brings you back to managing memory though, C++/CLI having access to managed C# handles/references for GC'd objects (and finalization) would greatly simplify any memory management at the same time as having first class access to native libaries. Granted, one could probably build some of the machinery memory management in a simple way but it'd still need to be done and probably not be coherent with other native in…

It's not that hard to create a C# wrapper class if you need to hold on to pointers that need to be cleaned up by the C code... you can keep a private property reference and call the appropriate C code as part of your Destructor or IDisposable implementation.

If you're wanting to use a C library, yeah, you need to manage how you use that C library, this is true regardless of the language you are using, it isn't magic.

Re: .NET 10

#554

Post by tracker1 »

eitally wrote: post #382
tracker1 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What libraries are you referring to? I really haven't used any commercial libraries at all since the .Net Core transition (and .Net 5+ as a result). Are you looking at older materials?

Just one example, but when I was running a .Net dev team we licensed the Telerik UI components. We ended up dropping them, but not until we had initiated a migration to Java/PG instead of C#/MSSQL. After we moved to Java everything standardized of a set of FOSS libraries for various things.

That's a choice, there's lots of FLOSS alternatives... was this a desktop application? In that case, I can see wanting to chose a commercial library as it probably saves a lot of work with the floss/in-the-box alternative options.

That said, for a web cli, there are a ton of options out there without touching anything commercially licensed.

Re: .NET 10

#555

Post by larrik »

zerr wrote: post #354
larrik wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter-point, my company was original purely .NET, then added Python (and later JS). For us, hiring .NET is WAY harder than the other stacks. We get a lot more applicants in general, but almost zero that meet our standards. For Python roles we get way fewer applicants, but the average quality is much much higher than the .NET average. (JS is a whole other thing, and we frankly aren't as good at hiring there yet…

Do you measure that standard by leetcode?

No, we don't do any coding tests, just discussions of what you've done and how deep your knowledge of your tools goes. .NET folks are far less likely to understand much beyond the syntax, nevermind the "why" of things (even WHY you need StringBuilder) or what a database index is, etc.

Re: .NET 10

#557

Post by tracker1 »

mattmanser wrote: post #447
nicoburns wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma. I tried .NET and liked C# as a language. But even though the language and runtime are now open source, it seemed like a lot of the recommended libraries were still commercially licensed, which was an immediate nope from me. I've never encountered that in any other ecosystem.

I use .Net a lot as in Europe it's everywhere. I think it occupies the same niche in Europe as Java does in America. Startups, enterprise, you name it. Lots of jobs in London with it for Finance. And in 20 years I've personally never needed a paid library. Maybe one company had bought Telerik back in the day? I've now built up multiple startups, some with millions of users. The only thing I ever plugin that's not a M…

C# is pretty popular in the US as well in certain spaces... especially Govt or Banking and adjacent environments. Mostly line of business applications. I'd say Java is slightly more popular, but I never really liked Java's ecosystem ergonomics, though they're better today it's just not for me.

Similarly, I'm not a fan of "Enterprise" development regardless... I find a lot of .Net shops, like Jave, just create a lot of layers of indirection and abstraction that only lead to excess complexity, cost and difficulty in both maintenance and enhancement. The older I get, the more my mindset shifts to make things that are easy to replace without adding undue complexity or patterns.

Re: .NET 10

#558

Post by whizzter »

to11mtm wrote: post #421
whizzter wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah pdf libraries are a bit of a mess, I work with a product that handles lots of PDF documents and I think we just recently added another PDF library dependency (I'm certain it's at least 3 now, but could be 4 or even 5 libraries loaded at startup). Moq has the appearance of free software but bundled some spyware stuff (seemingly "benign" "Sponsorlink" for getting donations). Masstransit went commercial recently, h…

> Moq has the appearance of free software but bundled some spyware stuff (seemingly "benign" "Sponsorlink" for getting donations). Well they pulled back but the trust was broken in a lot of cases. I am still fine with it 'for now' but IDK NSubstitute always feels weird to me, maybe that's just how I was taught to use it tho. > Masstransit went commercial recently I mean good for them but thankfully it's also giving a…

I created a Moq lookalike in an evening a few months back, it's not a hugely advanced project honestly (if you're used to working with the reflection system).

Re: .NET 10

#559

Post by wvenable »

DarkNova6 wrote: post #519
wvenable wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more to developer experience than that. Your comment even demonstrates one of the differences: The .NET library compared to a bunch of different Java frameworks.

That is indeed a technical difference. But I don’t see much significance in it. Spring is a de-facto extension of the core java libraries and alternatives like Quarkus follow the same mental model with a better technological foundation.

The culture around Java and C# are very different. I'm not sure I can explain it.

I could continue to point hundreds of technical differences but that's the trees and not the forest.

Re: .NET 10

#560

Post by neonsunset »

arwhatever wrote: post #547
denismenace wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is EF regarded as such a good ORM? I've encountered countless bugs in different repos related to its stateful nature after many years in .NET. Personally I found it completely illogical for my ORM to maintain state. I just want it to hold my schema and build queries.

EF hits you in the face right at the start with the massive convenience that it provides. And then the paper cuts start adding up, and adding up, and adding up. Although the EF team has made huge progress towards keeping your entities persistence-unaware, it's still not enough and eventually you wind up building your project in Entity Framework just as much as in C#.

What papercuts?
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