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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#551

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

Apparent reasoning can emerge from probabilistic systems that simply reproduce statistical order not genuine understanding.

Weather models sometimes “predict” a real pattern by chance, yet we don’t call the atmosphere intelligent.

If LLMs were truly thinking, we could enroll one at MIT and expect it to graduate, not just autocomplete its way through the syllabus or we could teach one how to drive.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#552
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes after a night’s sleep, we wake up with an insight on a topic or a solution to a problem we encountered the day before. Did we “think” in our sleep to come up with the insight or solution? For all we know, it’s an unconscious process. Would we call it “thinking”? The term “thinking” is rather ill-defined, too bound to how we perceive our own wakeful thinking. When conversing with LLMs, I never get the feelin…

There is simply put no ongoing process and no feedback loop. The model does not learn. The cognition ends when the inference cycle ends. It's not thinking, it just produces output that looks similar to the output of thinking. But the process by which it does that is wholly unreleated.

You're moving the goalposts and contradicting yourself with language games.

Something doesn't need to learn to think. I think all the time without learning.

There's also an argument for machines already starting to crack learning with literal reinforcement training and feedback loops.

Your language game was when you said the 'cognition ends...', as cognition is just a synonym for thinking. "The thinking ends when the inference cycle ends. It's not thinking'" becomes a clear contradiction.

As for "the process by which it does that is wholly unrelated", buddy it's modelled on human neuron behaviour. That's how we've had this generative AI breakthrough. We've replicated human mental cognition as closely as we can with current technology and the output bears striking resemblance to our own generative capabilities (thoughts).

Happy to admit it's not identical, but it's damn well inside the definition of thinking, may also cover learning. It may be better to take a second look at human thinking and wonder if it's as cryptic and deep as we thought ten, twenty years ago.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#553
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is simply put no ongoing process and no feedback loop. The model does not learn. The cognition ends when the inference cycle ends. It's not thinking, it just produces output that looks similar to the output of thinking. But the process by which it does that is wholly unreleated.

Most AI tooling is shipped with a feedback loop around the LLM. The quality of Claude Code for example lies in the feedback loop it provides on your code. Maybe the LLM itself isn't thinking, but the Agent which ships an LLM plus feedback loop definitely shows thinking qualities. Just now in an debugging session with claude code: * let me read this file... * let me read this file... * I think there's a caching issue…

without getting into theory of mind it's a bit difficult to elaborate, and I don't have the time or the will for that. But the short version is that thinking is interconnected with BEING as well as will, and the Agent has neither, in a philosophically formal sense. The agent is deterministically bound. So it is a fancy Rube Goldberg machine that outputs letters in a way that creates the impression of thought, but it is not thought, in the same way that some birds can mimic human speech without even the slightest hint as to the words' or sentences' meaning, underlying grammar, connotations, subtext, context, intended use, likely effect, etc. Is speech speech if the speaker has no concept whatsoever of said speech's content, and can not use it to actualize itself? I'd say no. It's mimicry, but not speech. So that means speech is something more than just its outward aspect - the words. It is the relation of something invisible, some inner experience known only to the speaker, VIA the words.

Whereas a gorilla who learns sign language to communicate and use that communication to achieve aims which have direct correlation with its sense of self - that's thought in the Cogito, Ergo Sum sense of the word.

Thought as commonly concieved by the layman is a sort of isolated phenomenon that is mechanical in nature and can be judged by its outward effects; whereas in the philosophical tradition defining thought is known to be one of the hard questions for its mysterious qualia of being interconnected with will and being as described above.

Guess I gave you the long answer. (though, really, it could be much longer than this.) The Turing Test touches on this distinction between the appearance of thought and actual thought.

The question goes all the way down to metaphysics; some (such as myself) would say that one must be able to define awareness (what some call consciousness - though I think that term is too loaded) before you can define thought. In fact that is at the heart of the western philosophical tradition; and the jury consensus remains elusive after all these thousands of years.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#554
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous. I use it daily and get meaningful, quality results. Learn to use the tools.

Learn to work on interesting problems? If the problem you are working on is novel and hard, the AI will stumble. Generalizing your experience to everyone else's betrays a lack of imagination.

Research mathematicians have been finding the tools useful [1][2]. I think those problems are interesting, novel, and hard. The AI might stumble sometimes, but it also produces meaningful, quality results sometimes. For experts working on interesting problems, that is enough to be useful.

[1] https://mathstodon.xyz/@tao/115420236285085121 [2] https://xcancel.com/wtgowers/status/1984340182351634571

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#555
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brains are pretrained models, change my mind. (Not LLMs obviously, to be perfectly clear)

If you are right, then I certainly cannot change your mind.

Show a snake to a 1yo and explain how the kid’s reaction is not pretrained. It’s called instinct in biology, but the idea is the same.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#556

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

If AI is thinking if slavery is bad then how can somebody own AI. How can investors can shares from AI profits? We are ok with slavery now. Ok i will have two black slaves now. Who can ask me? Why shld that be illegal?

I presume you are aware that the word "robot" is taken from a Czech word (robota) meaning "slave"

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#557
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most AI tooling is shipped with a feedback loop around the LLM. The quality of Claude Code for example lies in the feedback loop it provides on your code. Maybe the LLM itself isn't thinking, but the Agent which ships an LLM plus feedback loop definitely shows thinking qualities. Just now in an debugging session with claude code: * let me read this file... * let me read this file... * I think there's a caching issue…

without getting into theory of mind it's a bit difficult to elaborate, and I don't have the time or the will for that. But the short version is that thinking is interconnected with BEING as well as will, and the Agent has neither, in a philosophically formal sense. The agent is deterministically bound. So it is a fancy Rube Goldberg machine that outputs letters in a way that creates the impression of thought, but it…

For practical every day uses, does it really matter if it is "real thinking" or just really good "artificial thinking" with the same results? The machine can use artificial thinking to reach desired goals and outcomes, so for me it's the kind of thinking i would want from a machine.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#558
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

without getting into theory of mind it's a bit difficult to elaborate, and I don't have the time or the will for that. But the short version is that thinking is interconnected with BEING as well as will, and the Agent has neither, in a philosophically formal sense. The agent is deterministically bound. So it is a fancy Rube Goldberg machine that outputs letters in a way that creates the impression of thought, but it…

For practical every day uses, does it really matter if it is "real thinking" or just really good "artificial thinking" with the same results? The machine can use artificial thinking to reach desired goals and outcomes, so for me it's the kind of thinking i would want from a machine.

For practical purposes, abstractions are useful, so, no, it doesn't matter.

But the post we are responding to is directly posing the philosophical question of whether the activity of LLM agents constitutes thought.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we say "think" in this context, do we just mean generalize? LLMs clearly generalize (you can give one a problem that is not exactly in it's training data and it can solve it), but perhaps not to the extent a human can. But then we're talking about degrees. If it was able to generalize at a higher level of abstraction maybe more people would regard it as "thinking".

I meant it in the same way the previous commenter did: > Having seen LLMs so many times produce incoherent, nonsensical and invalid chains of reasoning... LLMs are little more than RNGs. They are the tea leaves and you read whatever you want into them. Of course LLMs are capable of generating solutions that aren't in their training data sets but they don't arrive at those solutions through any sort of rigorous reason…

Sure, and I’ve seen the same. But I’ve also seen the amount to which they do that decrease rapidly over time, so if that trend continues would your opinion change?

I don’t think there’s any point in comparing to human intelligence when assessing machine intelligence, there’s zero reason to think it would have similar qualities. It’s quite clear for the foreseeable future it will be far below human intelligence in many areas, while already exceeding humans in some areas that we regard as signs of intelligence.

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