Live data from Hacker News

Free software scares normal people

danieldelaney.net

551–560 of 641 posts

Re: Free software scares normal people

#551
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for the record: as a developer, I have done a ton of free software contributions. I pretty much didn't get anything from it, except people complaining or asking me to do even more for them, for free . I don't know if that qualifies as "getting ripped off", but it's not exactly paying me either.

I can relate, but artists get treated even worse. It seems to be a thing with creatives. Musicians also get ripped off a lot, as do writers. Developers seem to have a product that people can actually attach a value to, but art and music; not so much. They seem to be in different Venn circles. In all of it, we do stuff because of the love of the craft. One of the deeper satisfactions, for me, is when folks appreciate…

> Developers seem to have a product that people can actually attach a value to, but art and music; not so much.

This says more of your perception I think. Many people attach value to art and music. Many people do not attach value to software.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#552
Making a complicated and powerful piece of software is difficult. Just slapping a user interface that _allows_ using all the power, is hard enough. With that interface, the simple thing is difficult, and the complex thing is also difficult.

The really hard problem to solve is making an UI where the simple thing is easy and the complex thing is still possible.

But that requires 1) strong leadership 2) people with the correct skill set for UX design.

Making a clean UI means cutting things out. And that's not easy in many large OSS projects because every menu item and every button is someone's pet feature. The leaders in the projects are often the most senior _developers_, not UX experts. It's (I'm assuming) a lot less common to have good telemetry and user labs in OSS than it is for commercial software. So you also might not know exactly what features people use and how they use them, making it even harder to remove features.

I think the author is absolutely right. If Handbrake is intimidating, or hard to use without reading a manual in order to do just the simple use case that 80% of users have, then they have failed in making a good UX. A good UX would make the simple thing easy without sacrificing power for the complex case. And the author is absolutely having the right idea when making a simpler wrapper for the powerful software.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#553
post #517

I don't know. I see a lot of "normal" people having better access to technology nowadays, but I don't think the world is a better place because of it. The difficult interface was a good filter.

I think the filter used to be the cost.

Children were often more tech savvy than their parents, yet they didn't have as much to spend.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a lot of time and energy to refine and maintain a minimalistic interface. You are intentionally narrowing the audience. If you are an open source developer with limited time you probably aren't going to invest in that.

That’s one of the great things about the approach demonstrated in the post. The developers of Handbrake don’t need to invest any time or energy in a minimalist interface. They can continue to maintain their feature-rich software exactly as it is. Meanwhile, there is also a simple, easy front end available for people who need or want it.

I think There’s a survivorship problem though. This software needs to be marketed and maintained to stay in the zeitgeist. It would have to compete with competitors that do more than just the simple things.

I think it’s essentially survivorship bias. The simple applications don’t get traction and later get abandoned.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#555

Good article, but the reasoning is wrong. It isn't easy to make a simple interface in the same way that Pascal apologized for writing a long letter because he didn't have time to write a shorter one. Implementing the UI for one exact use case is not much trouble, but figuring out what that use case is difficult. And defending that use case from the line of people who want "that + this little extra thing", or the "I j…

It’s “the tyranny of the marginal user” as Ivan Vendrov coined it

Re: Free software scares normal people

#556
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally you'd want to add selectable options for users in a way that's sustainable long-term and not just panic-adding things all over the place because of user demands. That's how you get the Handbrake situation that OP article is complaining about. Gnome 3 was a big update and adding options, which does happen, is not free. There were changes from Gnome 2 and 3 and adding some options "back" from Gnome 2 is really…

Gnome developers also have a habit of telling users (and other developers who try to integrate with their DE) who ask for those missing features that they're "holding it wrong" etc. Quite often this is justified along the lines of, "we did a UX study and you don't really need to do X so we made it do Y instead!" After dealing with this kind of stuff for 14 years, it shouldn't be surprising that you don't have a lot o…

I recently came across a particular GUI quirk in a Linux distro, which went against my experience with similar UIs in Windows, Mac and Chrome. There were existing bug reports for it, attributing the cause to upstream. Upstream project said they were following the GNOME guidelines.

Eventually, I found the bug report that was filed against the guideline itself. The person who wrote that part of the guideline had responded that he made the decision based on a poll (presumably of people in the mailing list), and that no-one really had a strong opinion on it. He asserted that it was no big deal, and refused to reconsider the guideline.

Now, I think it is perfectly OK to make the wrong decision when it comes to something outside your expertise. If you are a backend software expert, it is OK for you to do the wrong thing when it comes to the UI for a project you are supporting for free. But when someone who does know that field makes a reasoned suggestion, you should not really be doubling down.

A UI/UX designer in this situation is not exactly going to be prepared fork and maintain a whole stack over this. It just means that the experience will be worse for users.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#557
post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the intern will not follow the procedure, and likely isn't even technically required to do so. But, before the application becomes a tool actually used inside the company, there should be some quality control done.

Think of the management structure which arranges, and is satisfied with, tedious, repetitive, manual paper-pushing processes - such that an INTERN can immediately see the efficiency benefits that would come with automation, and doesn't just suggest doing so, but actually builds a program (in limited intern timeframe), that is so helpful it's quickly picked up by multiple employees. Then think again of those managers…

Shutting it down due to a technicality about not following a procedure != shutting it down because it is an unmaintainable mess, while also tasking IT with implementing the same core idea, but in a proper way.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#558
post #524
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know you're right if you haven't fixed it? That seems like a way to just be a stuck in the mud and wrong the whole time.

exclude the impossible and what is left however improbable must be the truth

If we're still talking about an amateur doing it, isn't their understanding of the possibilities petty limited?

Re: Free software scares normal people

#559
post #414

> 80% of the people only need 20% of the features. I also heard that, once you try to apply this concept, you see that everyone needs a different 20%. Any thoughts on this?

Opinionated Apple seems to get away with it.

Well, I'm not familiar with their office suite, but I bet that, if I open their word processor, I will still find a ton of features that I will never use.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#560

A lot of this type of stuff boils down to what you're used to. My wife is not particularly tech savvy. She is a Linux user, however. When we started a new business, we needed certain applications that only run on Windows and since she would be at the brick and mortar location full time, I figured we could multi-purpose a new laptop for her and have her switch to Windows. She hated it and begged for us to get a dedica…

Familiarity is massively undersold in the Linux desktop adoption discussion. Having desktop environments that are near 1:1 clones of the commercial platforms (preferably paired with a distribution that's designed to be bulletproof and practically never requires its user to fire up a terminal window) would go so far for making Linux viable for users sitting in the middle of the bell curve of technical capability. It's…

No, this is poison. They constantly change things, and Free Software would be racing to clone them, continually leaving familiarity behind in order to be a wonky version of the real thing. That battle is lost when it starts. Firefox was a great version of Firefox, everybody loved it (except when it locked up the entire system), nobody thought it was a knock-off of IE. Firefox then became a shit version of Chrome (I assume on Google's orders), and eventually developed into a good enough version of Chrome, shedding all of its users along the way. The Linux desktop is doing better than Firefox now.

The advantage to Free Software is that you don't have to change everything with Windows, Apple, Adobe, or Google demand you do (unless they grab control of a FOSS project, like in Firefox's case.) There are a number of writers who recommend Linux and Free software only for that reason - that once you get a workflow going, you don't want to change it according to corporate whims.

> practically never requires its user to fire up a terminal window

This can be a problem. But it will be less of a problem with LLMs. We need to encourage amateur (and proficient) Linux adopters and users to lean on AI to deal with anything giving them problems. I had an LLM walk me through updating a .deb package in MATE to match HEAD upstream, and to do it in a way that would be replaced when Debian updated the package itself. This is something I've been carefully avoiding learning for a decade, and if I had taken the effort to try to learn, it would be weeks of research and I'd have messed up the system multiple times along the way. Instead, after a few false starts, I did it and gained the knowledge to do it again.

Post reply on HN