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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#551

Post by danielscrubs »

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

I hear quite a lot of these stories from my parents. Are these kind of personality shifting diseases, like Alzheimers becoming more common? And if so, is it because we take better care of our hearts and don’t die as early as?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#552

Post by whatever1 »

tsimionescu wrote: post #542
Noaidi wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? Yes. Did I say that it was easy? Did I say that the spiritual way through all this was just pretending like everything is OK? No, it’s a very difficult process. Avoiding suffering is impossible. Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering. Only understanding suffering and where it originates can get…

You are not replying to my core point. Do you believe that a person with severe late stage Alzheimer is the same person they were before the disease reached that point? Do you believe that their old mind and personality still exists at that point? If so, why? For many other neuro-psychiatric diseases, we know that moments of psychosis are reversible, at least to some extent, with drugs and therapy and the kindness of…

By the way dementia etc throw a wrench in the concepts of consciousness, afterlife etc.

A person with late state Alzheimer's, are they conscious? Do they still have "spirit" ψυχή? Is it the same person, or the person moved on? Are they human anymore?

Sorry I have no answers.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#553

Post by prmoustache »

Noaidi wrote: post #397
prmoustache wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dementia and Alzheimer is not something that can simply be managed throught treatment. It is an inexorable descent into suffering for both the person and its entourage with absolutely zero hope of getting better. At best in the last stages you get very short glimpses of normality within hours of confusions, frustrations, anger and pain. If I am ever diagnosed with one of those, I absolutely want the chance to end my…

I’ve had a lot of people suffer in my life from health conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease, and cancer. And I’ve had to take care of them all at different times. Did I consider this a burden or a gift? Oh, it was hard, but does that mean it’s a burden? If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that yo…

> If you’re thinking that you’ll be a burden do you think that these people really love you?

These are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#554

Post by Remnant44 »

Andrex wrote: post #484
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

34M. I live with my mom who's had it for a few years. It sucks. It's so easy to forget who they were before the disease. This is them now and it's hard as hell. Simple things that take 1-step for us take 50+ steps for her. She doesn't readily communicate that she's hungry or thirsty or needs to use the bathroom, we have to constantly ask. She's always exhausted and walking around in circles but reacts aggressively to…

I've had just the smallest touch of this caring for my elderly parents, and you have my deep empathy. It's exhausting and really really hard.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#555

Post by croes »

stackskipton wrote: post #409
croes wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is math considered a science?

Yes? You can form hypothesis and prove it or not.

But science is based on empirical methods.

Math isn’t empirical. You don’t do experiments in maths do gain knowledge.

It’s not a natural science and not a social science so that leaves formal science but math in a requirement for formal science. Math can’t be its own requirement so it’s not a formal science either.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#556

Post by djaboss »

jacquesm wrote: post #386
djaboss wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I do wonder why no company has come knocking to the door of the hospital room where I'm sitting right this minute waiting for my terminally ill mother to die. Because since years she's member of EXIT, the well-known Swiss institution that is providing assisted suicide services, and it would still take several weeks for us to jump through all the required paper and legal hoops to get the ball rolling. And now she…

Wow, what a situation. Strength to you.

Thank you! <3 Fortunately, she could finally leave the past night.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#557

Post by Noaidi »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #524
Noaidi wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you’re right which is why I said greedy almost. I think there are some aspect of him wanting more than he’s deserved. Like wanting a life that ends perfectly while everyone else’s life has to go on with their suffering. But I think it is just generally selfish what he did.

Again being “selfish” is just restating the same. How is he withholding anything from anyone else by his decision.

Being selfish is being overly concerned with one’s self. He took his own life without regards to the consequence how anyone else would see it. He was also overly concerned with his self image as he stated in his letter.

And he’s taken something, he’s taking his own life. Which I do not believe it was his to take.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#558

Post by Noaidi »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #525
Noaidi wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The action by the man in the original article is advocating for the killing of oneself. His advice is to avoid suffering it is best to kill yourself. Approving of that message is advocating for death over suffering and that’s just something I disagree with. It is my personal choice, but his personal choice has an impact on society so it’s not really a personal choice. If we find it acceptable for people to kill thems…

How did his choice impact anyone else besides people who cared about him? Society is not harmed by people not wanting to endure suffering if he isn’t leaving dependent children or a disabled spouse. Why should he be forced to suffer because someone else is uncomfortable?

When anyone’s life is taken it is considered worthless, less than. Whether that is someone else’s life or your own, that sets a precedent, and it sends a message. No action happens in a bubble. Again, he was not enduring suffering either. He was merely afraid of future suffering. Which makes this in my opinion 1000 times worse.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#560

Post by Noaidi »

N_Lens wrote: post #543
Noaidi wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am old. I have friends in their 70s and I have friends that died of cancer and suicide and heart attacks. I had a father who died terribly of a rapid spreading cancer and a mother who lived with chronic pain and heart disease for 30 years. I have friends who like me live in poverty some of them suffer from it, others of us don’t. If you lived in your 80s and you have not figured out what life is about then that’s n…

While I respect your perspective on the value of suffering (which seems to arise from our sense of self and what we associate with “I”) and figuring out life, I think you judge Kahneman as an outside observer without access to his inner thoughts, state and factors that went into his decision.

I agree with you. All I can judgment is his actions. And his words. This man was afraid of future suffering. And he was so afraid of it that he would rather die than face it. But the truth is, he could’ve tripped and fell down the stairs the next day and died on his own. So not only was he afraid, but he was arrogant. He thought he could predict the future. This man certainty took whatever life he had left away from his “partner“.

I’m less concerned about what was in his head than the message that he sends. The message he sent was that perceived future suffering is not worth enduring. He killed himself because he was afraid of suffering. He was afraid of the natural process of dying.

Is that the message we want to send about old age and dying? That it’s unnatural? Can anyone choose what age they think is old enough? Maybe it should be 65 years old, the retirement age. That would save the United States a lot of money for sure.

Is this setting up the president for some sort of real life version of Logan‘s run?

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