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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American currently in Germany, the food situation is soooo much better here and they would do well to not allow incorrect or misleading labels on consumer products. I understand what you’re saying about censorship, but this is a pretty weak example, IMO. We had something similar in the US with attempts to ban the word “milk” from “almond milk” [0]. Are there other examples that are more egregious? [0] https://a…

I dont understand that view : peanut butter, coconut milk, cacao butter and plenty, plenty others exemples exist probably since languages apparition. A vegetal burger shouldn’t be called beef burger obviously but we all know what almond milk means. The misleading argument isn’t serious but an attempt to block a cultural changes some don’t like or profit from.

Further, then the term beef shouldn’t be allowed.

They should call it what it is. Cow corpse flesh.

The concept of calling a food that is meant to mimic another food with an appropriate modifier in front has existed forever.

So, for example, white chocolate isn’t chocolate…but with the appropriate modifier no one is confused about it.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the far right starts winning when it attracts not just the types it naturally attracts all the time but more mid field folks as well. People who you don't get to your side by saying they're facists or other accusatory statements. I've heard plenty of times from such people that they've felt the government/establishment parties have made my bordering country less safe for women, gay people, etc and now numbe…

> People who you don't get to your side by saying they're facists or other accusatory statements. How do I get folks that literally vote fascists to "my side"? Does it involve changing "my side" to be a little fascistic? What is to be done with the overlaps, e.g. people that are homosexuals but are racists, people from racial minorities that are homophobic, and so on? Like, realistically, what do you think should hap…

>At that point you seriously, seriously fucked up.

I think we've realistically introduced a source of political hubris for generations to come and created a scenario where if we're not being too optimistic about the perfect path being taken there will be sharp edges whichever way you go.

The same happened here in the past with our flemish/wallonian sectarianism that should've never been started and inflamed. In fact over many decades migration seems to be the only thing that managed to overtake it.

Acknowledge issues and start doing stuff these parties have been calling for for the past 2 decades to stop influx and you legitimize their ideas and admit fault in some ways. Don't do anything, continue the status quo claiming everything smells of roses and you just build up more sectarian bullshit.

Ideally you slow migration down without too much noise about it imo. For example you adjust treaties so that people rejected in other european countries can be sent back and actually follow trough and employ european political power to actually facilitate this sending back and discourages staying in a way that was possible in the past. You start limiting family reunion schemes depending on the country, etc Additionally you invest hard in integration and not in the weird paternalistic shit that i hear about from germany now.

If I remember wel here in Belgium in 2005 or so well over 70% had big concerns about migration and had it in their top 3 issues. That was 2 decades ago well before the big influxes. Not losing many of them was easier than getting them back that's for sure but there's plenty more still on that edge. I'd also say we're doing way worse than Germany on these fronts and additionally a far greater share of german migration is actually refugees i believe. The only reason we haven't had an afd equivalent governing yet is how fractured our political landscape is when compared and the flemish/wallonian split.

My guess for the future btw is that none of this will happen here and instead social trust will get worse and it will also be used as an excuse/force pushing to build down social security more regardless of who wins (like in denmark i believe).

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#553
post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What exactly does that entail, outside of the analogy and in the real world, in the context of Chat Control legislation? Minimize govt. Remove the govt ability to control many aspects of one's life.

Good effing luck with that. Government is an institution that grows until it controls every single aspect of its citizens’ lives. What to do when government grows cancerous?

Agreed, it won't happen in practice. It's common people who are in favor of more legislation without realizing that are shooting themselves in the foot.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont understand that view : peanut butter, coconut milk, cacao butter and plenty, plenty others exemples exist probably since languages apparition. A vegetal burger shouldn’t be called beef burger obviously but we all know what almond milk means. The misleading argument isn’t serious but an attempt to block a cultural changes some don’t like or profit from.

Further, then the term beef shouldn’t be allowed. They should call it what it is. Cow corpse flesh. The concept of calling a food that is meant to mimic another food with an appropriate modifier in front has existed forever. So, for example, white chocolate isn’t chocolate…but with the appropriate modifier no one is confused about it.

In English, we frequently use the French-derived version of the same animal to mean the food version.

I agree with you on white chocolate (and Hershey’s chocolate bar for that matter).

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#555
post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good effing luck with that. Government is an institution that grows until it controls every single aspect of its citizens’ lives. What to do when government grows cancerous?

Agreed, it won't happen in practice. It's common people who are in favor of more legislation without realizing that are shooting themselves in the foot.

> It's common people who are in favor of more legislation

I know. I've always called myself a progressive left individual, then found out the modern progressive left is all about solving every issue with more rules, more centralisation, more bureaucracy and more prohibition. It's maddening to see how many people feel their government isn't legislating enough and is still too liberal.

Case in point: Online Safety Act has been heavily pushed by Labour (despite starting as a Tory thing). Chat Control is being pushed by the Danish Social Democrats.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#556
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is your reading my friend. in your whole quote, there is no mentioning of the word “fascist”. also nothing about “violent takeover”. if you take those statements to mean that, then what is Antifa doing? Or XR? Or the pro-pallies? ah right. only radical left is allowed to use “violence”, right?

So .. you are saying because modern fascists seldom use the term fascist for themself, they ain't no fascist? Well, to me it is enough if people subscribe openly to all the main ideology of Hitlers party and that time in general. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and swims like a duck, it is a duck. Höcke can be officially called a Fascist due to his statements. Was he removed from the party? Or shunned eve…

It's not that the so-called "modern fascists" don't use the term, it's that the VS does not even use the term. Not that it matters because it lost any meaning anyway.

Also the AfD does not subscribe to the main ideology of Hitlers party. Did you read the party's program? Where in god's name do you find anything in there that can be compared to the program of the NSDAP? The AfD is in large parts much more liberal than any of the other parties when it comes to the economic side of things. The AfD is also not against immigration per se, as long as it provides a benefit for teh country. Much like countries like Canada do. If you don't believe me, watch some speeches from their members, for instance the one that took place in Hannover a while ago. Don't believe just randomly what some leftist ARD/ZDF journalists want you to believe.

DieLinke on the other hand is a direct follow-up party from the SED. They want to end our capitalistic system and replace it with democratic socialism. That's 1:1 SED.

Anway, coming to Höcke. Höcke is far-right. For sure. Is he extreme? Does he want to use violence? Nope. I don't think so. It looks like people elect him in a demogratic elections. Does he say things that are on the edge? Sure! Is that his right: YES! If you don't like him, then don't vote for him. Attack his arguments with your own arguments. Labelling him fascist is a poor tactic and doesn't mean anything anymore anyway.

And you know. You base your arguments on the Verfassungsschutz. I think its a biased agency that should be removed from power as soon as possible. Same as with most of the judges, especially the radical left judges in Berlin. And I know, I know, you will call this now "anti-democratic" or whatever. Well, in a democracy, it is my RIGHT and my DUTY to critique the powers that be. That also includes the judges. Left wingers did that as well, until they successfully conducted their marche throught the institutions. Now, they LOVE the institutions. Don't believe me? The Greens SUED at the Verfassungsgericht, I think in 1983, AGAINST Germanys entry in the EU. Together with the Republicans. The reason? The EU is anti-democratic. Well, they lost because the Verfassungsgericht was pro-EU back then. However, now they LOVE the EU. Were TheGreens now less democratic than they are now? Were TheGreens "fascists" or "Nazis" or whatever you wanna call them becasue they dared to critize the institutions? The answer is no. And so aren't people that are critizing the current institutions.

And finally, to the guy claiming that I am a troll and that my posts are hidden. That's bs. I posted here maybe 10 times. And I am not a troll but a sincere citizen who just happens to really like the AfD and what it stands for.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#557
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So .. you are saying because modern fascists seldom use the term fascist for themself, they ain't no fascist? Well, to me it is enough if people subscribe openly to all the main ideology of Hitlers party and that time in general. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and swims like a duck, it is a duck. Höcke can be officially called a Fascist due to his statements. Was he removed from the party? Or shunned eve…

It's not that the so-called "modern fascists" don't use the term, it's that the VS does not even use the term. Not that it matters because it lost any meaning anyway. Also the AfD does not subscribe to the main ideology of Hitlers party. Did you read the party's program? Where in god's name do you find anything in there that can be compared to the program of the NSDAP? The AfD is in large parts much more liberal than…

"You base your arguments on the Verfassungsschutz."

I live in saxony ffs.

So I do believe you are not a payed troll, as I had countless debates with people like you.

I just don't believe you really have a intention of having a honest debate here.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, by my logic we shouldn't take citizenship away, period. How can you be so dense?

You can't take my citizenship away if it's my only one, you dense piece of concrete. Why would I fear that would happen to "my group"?

So what's your point

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who you don't get to your side by saying they're facists or other accusatory statements. How do I get folks that literally vote fascists to "my side"? Does it involve changing "my side" to be a little fascistic? What is to be done with the overlaps, e.g. people that are homosexuals but are racists, people from racial minorities that are homophobic, and so on? Like, realistically, what do you think should hap…

>At that point you seriously, seriously fucked up. I think we've realistically introduced a source of political hubris for generations to come and created a scenario where if we're not being too optimistic about the perfect path being taken there will be sharp edges whichever way you go. The same happened here in the past with our flemish/wallonian sectarianism that should've never been started and inflamed. In fact…

I'm not your chatgpt, man

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what is the point of debating like this on the internet. I say billionaires, you mention a "millionaire" chancellor. We don't have anything against becoming rich. But if you think that Herr Merz, who I haven't voted for and politically dislike, is anything close to a tycoon, well I think we're swinging in two very different planes of reality. He's a high-income lawyer who invested and has a net-worth of abou…

You are arguing with a person who doesn't care what people say, facts are just other's propaganda against their emotionally held beliefs, the story is set in their head and thats it. Not a discussion really. Usual avoiding of hard facts that challenge their fantasies. A fairly typical behavior I've seen countless times in topics about russian war in Ukraine in recent years. No point at all, a wasted time.

> facts are just other's propaganda against their emotionally held beliefs,

This is dishonest at best. It's a matter of opinion. I rarely - if ever - think of anyone who disagrees with me as spreading "propaganda". This is a dangerous narrative you have built in your head. I suggest you stop.

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