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Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

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Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? Would you put a Nazi and a Jewish person in a room every day (or on a Zoom call or whatever) and expect something productive to happen? Well, no. It's a ticking timebomb. If you have an organization with multiple employees, they'll have to be people who can work together. So as a workplace, you need to either rid your empl…

I don't care what religion or political views they have. Its a workplace, if either person can't check it at the door then that's the problem to deal with. Honestly its pretty insulting to both of the people involved for you to assume so strongly that they couldn't be professional that (a) you never give them the chance and (b) you chose to hire only the one who you agree with (or disagree with the least).

the people talking to you are talking about something very different than simply "political beliefs that you disagree with"

the appropriate level of capital gains tax at the 80th percentile is a political belief that you can tweet about in your personal time and allowing there to be a civil relationship with your colleagues in a professional environment. this is a political belief that reasonable people can disagree with.

asserting the supremacy of the white race is not a political belief that you can tweet about in your personal time while still allowing a civil relationship with your colleagues in a professional environment. this is not something that reasonable people can disagree with.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#552
post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful with your reasoning. Remember that the current ruling party in America (as well as growing movement in Europe) is using the same rhetoric to go after liberals and trans people. The problem isn't that any sensible person supports genocide, it is that insensible people can get to power and trick normal people into thinking genocide is necessary or not happening at all. They do the former by saying "if we don…

> The problem is who gets to pick who is right and not? we all do, collectively, as a society > So yes, to protect those groups being persecuted (trans, minorities, and Jews alike) you need to protect the speech of abhorrent groups like Nazis. there is actually a categorical difference between advocating the persecution of minorities, and advocating the persecution of nazis. and furthermore it is actually possible an…

  > we all do, collectively, as a society
I agree. But at the same time do you not recognize that collectively, as a society, Nazis decided to attack Jews, trans, disabled, and others? It's not an easy game to play and I think that's what most people here are trying to convey. In the end very few people think they themselves are evil.

  > there is actually a categorical difference between advocating the persecution of minorities, and advocating the persecution of nazis.
This line is clear to you, but think harder. Abstract just a little and you can see. You program so I am confident you can handle abstraction. (if you can't program, well you're probably on the wrong forum)

Have you ever listened to the right wing talking points these days? I'm not saying you need to believe them, but "know your enemy". They are justifying their hate of minorities by making claims that those people are attacking them. They frame it as self-defense, not offense. It is absolutely critical to understand this, because that's how they have brought people to their side. It is the same way the Nazis did. But again, think carefully, were no one to actually act on said beliefs then how do you know? If you make a "preemptive strike" then you only empower their claims of acting in self-defense. Even if you can justify your "preemptive strike" as a self-defense measure too!

I think you are oversimplifying the problem because you are relying far too much on the obviousness of Nazis being evil. But if you make that mistake you'll have missed the important lesson of how the Nazis gained power and got support from so many people. If you truly believe that evil is trivial to identify then you'll have to conclude that the entire country of Germany one day decided that they wanted to be evil and then the next day they didn't. The ability to flip such a switch would be gravely concerning in of itself, and if unique to Germany then should you not conclude that they should not exist because they have such capacity for evil?

OR you can believe that things are more complicated. That evil creeps and infests. It disguises itself as good, tells you half lies so you have truth to found yourself on (even if that truth is distorted). That the road to Hell is paved by good intentions and that evil can be created by good men trying to do good things.

This is an underlying philosophy to those that acknowledge Turnkey Tyranny. And I say acknowledge, not believe, because look around you. Do you not see these leaders abusing their authoritarian powers? Look at the origins of many of those powers, especially with Trump. They don't all come from right wingers who were playing some long game. He's exploited powers brought in by Biden, Obama, and Clinton, just as he's exploiting powers brought in by Bush, Bush, and Regan.

Evil loves to convince people that everything is simple and evil is clearly identifiable. Why would it not? Do you really believe the snake isn't going to be a snake?

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#553
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? Would you put a Nazi and a Jewish person in a room every day (or on a Zoom call or whatever) and expect something productive to happen? Well, no. It's a ticking timebomb. If you have an organization with multiple employees, they'll have to be people who can work together. So as a workplace, you need to either rid your empl…

If they can be professional, yeah? I have diverse private interests that don't really get mixed with work. Don't see why my political interests should. I've worked with people I don't personally like. It's more tiring since there's less chit chat but the work gets done all the same.

The employee in question did not keep these beliefs private, and posted publicly (and not hiding behind anonymity) about them. They were also a public figure as the "GNAA" president, a hate group, a position they took over from Weev, the Stormfront administrator.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#554
post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your private interests probably don't include the wish for your co-workers to be harmed, killed or at least treated like a lesser being.

Is this fictitious Nazi working with a fictitious Jewish person acting on those views or discussing them at work? If not then why should their employer care, and why should we actually support the idea of workplace discrimination?

This is not fiction. The employee was real.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those examples have nothing to do with your specific political views. Yes they do - as I've said, you can't invoke politics as a shield. You can be fired for your beliefs. Politics are a belief. So you can be fired for politics. If you're trying to say that you can just be an asshole in private - sure. If you share your political beliefs, it's no longer private. Most companies don't want to hire people they think a…

Okay, I'll try to take this from the top. > Yes they do - as I've said, you can't invoke politics as a shield. That isn't the issue at hand. You are describing using ones political views against them simply for them holding those views, not someone being an asshole and attempting to justify it as a political act. > Most companies don't want to hire people they think are assholes. Sure, though they would base that on…

Your identity as an asshole versus your actions as an asshole are really not too different. It doesn't matter much.

If I know you have political views X, you already fucked up. This is a tree falling in the forest problem.

You're claiming that somehow, magically, people are being discriminated by their political beliefs without ever acting on them or saying them.

Okay how? How is that possible? If I know your political beliefs, you've already taken political action.

> Ultimately you're the one worse off for viewing people this ways. Views and beliefs don't make a person suck, actions do.

Yeah and what begets actions? Beliefs.

Theyre completely inseparable, that's just a fact of life.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'll try to take this from the top. > Yes they do - as I've said, you can't invoke politics as a shield. That isn't the issue at hand. You are describing using ones political views against them simply for them holding those views, not someone being an asshole and attempting to justify it as a political act. > Most companies don't want to hire people they think are assholes. Sure, though they would base that on…

Your identity as an asshole versus your actions as an asshole are really not too different. It doesn't matter much. If I know you have political views X, you already fucked up. This is a tree falling in the forest problem. You're claiming that somehow, magically, people are being discriminated by their political beliefs without ever acting on them or saying them. Okay how? How is that possible? If I know your politic…

If you know I have political view X, I have shared my view. That doesn't mean I have acted on them.

Do you view holding or discussing a certain view as acting upon them? Is a distaste for Republicans in America today, for example, tantamount to acting on said distaste and assassinating someone?

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'll try to take this from the top. > Yes they do - as I've said, you can't invoke politics as a shield. That isn't the issue at hand. You are describing using ones political views against them simply for them holding those views, not someone being an asshole and attempting to justify it as a political act. > Most companies don't want to hire people they think are assholes. Sure, though they would base that on…

Their politics were expressed as behaviors: proclaiming "I'm a nazi" publicly, taking over leadership of GNAA from Stormfront's administrator, etc. These were not private beliefs that were uncovered through surveying. There was no survey. Or by behavior do you mean that public support of terrorism isn't grounds for an employer to avoid hiring or termination? That the standard for that would be actual terrorist acts?

I'm not sure who the they are you're referring to here, sorry. If anyone acted on their opinions and discriminated against someone, or worse, of course an employer could consider that.

The whole conversation here, though, was whether someone's beliefs alone are enough to discriminate against them in a hiring process. My argument has been that beliefs or opinions shouldn't be discriminated against, but actions are fair game.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their politics were expressed as behaviors: proclaiming "I'm a nazi" publicly, taking over leadership of GNAA from Stormfront's administrator, etc. These were not private beliefs that were uncovered through surveying. There was no survey. Or by behavior do you mean that public support of terrorism isn't grounds for an employer to avoid hiring or termination? That the standard for that would be actual terrorist acts?

I'm not sure who the they are you're referring to here, sorry. If anyone acted on their opinions and discriminated against someone, or worse, of course an employer could consider that. The whole conversation here, though, was whether someone's beliefs alone are enough to discriminate against them in a hiring process. My argument has been that beliefs or opinions shouldn't be discriminated against, but actions are fai…

This thread is under my post about Cf employing a Nazi activist. I don’t want to name them here because their CEO targets people online who mention them. You can look it up but their X account has been wiped so you have to dig just a little

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you arguing for a system where employers consider your political views before hiring you? Would you put a Nazi and a Jewish person in a room every day (or on a Zoom call or whatever) and expect something productive to happen? Well, no. It's a ticking timebomb. If you have an organization with multiple employees, they'll have to be people who can work together. So as a workplace, you need to either rid your empl…

> Would you put a Nazi and a Jewish person in a room every day Today's Nazis have more diversified targets for discrimination. Concentrated antisemitism was a side effect of the personal issues of the most famous Nazi exponent in history, but they're more about racial supremacy. Today they might be Islamophobic more then antisemitic. To answer to your question, their thoughts and views don't matter in the office, the…

What counts as acting? This employee was openly self proclaimed Nazi, member of groups that spread explicitly Nazi ideology online, and the leader of a hate organization (previously led by Weev, the Stormfront administrator, who handed over the president position to them). I don’t understand quick defense of this.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#560
post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is who gets to pick who is right and not? we all do, collectively, as a society > So yes, to protect those groups being persecuted (trans, minorities, and Jews alike) you need to protect the speech of abhorrent groups like Nazis. there is actually a categorical difference between advocating the persecution of minorities, and advocating the persecution of nazis. and furthermore it is actually possible an…

> we all do, collectively, as a society I agree. But at the same time do you not recognize that collectively, as a society, Nazis decided to attack Jews, trans, disabled, and others? It's not an easy game to play and I think that's what most people here are trying to convey. In the end very few people think they themselves are evil. > there is actually a categorical difference between advocating the persecution of mi…

> do you not recognize that collectively, as a society, Nazis decided to attack Jews, trans, disabled, and others? ... in the end very few people think they themselves are evil.

yes, I agree with you, that society made some pretty bogus determinations, and they certainly didn't see themselves as evil. but in the fullness of time and history their position has been understood as wrong.

> I think you are oversimplifying the problem because you are relying far too much on the obviousness of Nazis being evil.

my point isn't about nazis or the obviousness of their evil. my point is that advancement as a species requires delegation of moral authority to collective government i.e. society. and transitively that the possibility of pathological negative outcomes doesn't somehow invalidate this idea outright. we don't throw away the concept of a judicial system because innocent people can be declared guilty. we work towards eliminating those failures in what is otherwise an essential component of government.

zoom out. think larger. be more empathetic. nazis and maga and all of this garbage are bugs in the system, which we're fully capable of stamping out, in the long term.

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