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Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

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Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#551

If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of J…

Everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence.

You can't force people, you can't trick people.

I may be wrong, but I think enough voters were deceived by Donald that the election was no longer well-informed.

That's how he got into power.

To the extent that's true, USA no longer had genuine elections.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#552
As an American I will have a hard time forgiving anyone that voted for Trump. He telegraphed his sick obsession with Putin and still was voted in. I am sorry.

I hope we still have a country 4 years from now. He is a saboteur as is Musk and both should be considered foreign agents IMO. Yet they are running the country. Makes me want to vomit.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#553
post #320

The funniest thing about all this is the absurd joke that Trump is compromised by Russia. A clearly populist and baseless propaganda to wash off the cold self-interested policies that America always (obviously) shoved down the throats of it's allies and enemies. The inability to see how this policy benefits usa (by giving an end to a dead-end spend to a lost war, claim some losses, attempt to not go head to head with…

This was the investment of the century for the USA. Send old garbage and help with intelligence to weaken a historical enemy, revive NATO, and acquire knowledge on the frontier of warfare. The joke is on the USA, sadly.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#554

Ukraine is in a bind, and the US has the power to do whatever it wants. But boy, will the nations of the world remember this -- how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully. A really bad day for US foreign policy. The EU is going to be thinking long and hard about the future of NATO now.

European Democracies should start a, new, NATO-like military Alliance on their own, but without Trump's America. (and without the notorious US-made military equipment kill-switches)

And while we're at it, this time will be different: Instead of the membership criteria being anti-soviet communism, as in NATO, it should be effective Liberal Democracy - and - Freedom from Exceptionalist Exemptions, namely from the International Rule of Law. So, to be part,

1. Compulsory International Criminal Court membership and compliance - hence no exceptionalistic US, and no exceptionalistic Israel.

2. No "Illiberal Democracies": say, for example, composite of a minimum 0.67 score on the WJP Rule of Law Index and others: therefore no Orbanic Hungary, and no illiberal others like it. Poland, Slovakia, Italy: time to make some hard choices if you want in.

3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion.

Not one more new military equipment purchase from the US, (and dispreference for other non-qualifying nations procurement). Member nations should use their - substantial - industrial capacity to equip themselves with indigenous military materiel.

Hey, it would be actually great for the economy!

Initially European scope, but bridges to a broader global scope (or even a secondary sister-Alliance) with open-ended partnerships with Canada, Australia, New Zeland, Japan, South Korea, and yes: Taiwan.

US and/or Israel want to join, if a more Democratic future selves? Simple: fully join the ICC, and meet the Alliance's full criteria as every other member.

Same applies for prospective new members.

Sweden shows how principled positions can be maintained while building serious defense capabilities. Now multiply that model by Europe's combined industrial and technological base.

We just need the political will to execute - instead of just rolling over and wagging our tail to bullies.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#555

Ukraine is in a bind, and the US has the power to do whatever it wants. But boy, will the nations of the world remember this -- how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully. A really bad day for US foreign policy. The EU is going to be thinking long and hard about the future of NATO now.

> the US can turn from ally to bully

This has been par for the course for decades. They used to be on good terms with Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Iran after they couped Mossadegh. Heck, they even armed and trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. It has always been a deadly gambit to ally yourself with the United States.

I'm not saying it's universally the case of course. For every Saddam there's a Pinochet, for every Gaddafi there's a Suharto. But the fact that the US can drop an ally just like that should not be a surprise to anyone.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#556
post #252

China can be pretty sure that the US will not act if they attack Taiwan. Trump and Vance are weak. All talk, no walk.

China is smart enough to know that US diplomacy lasts longer than a 4 year term. They've been operating off the 1992 Consensus, and had a longstanding agreement with the US re: One China Policy that was upended by Obama, and then Biden. Trump's chaotic swings are a blip.

China is also smart enough to have been watching the "decoupling" pushed by the Obama-era CIA starting in the late 2010s, and then the Russian invasion, so an actual Taiwanese land invasion won't happen until China is fully decoupled, and even then there is the much bigger international fallout. China won't throw away its position as world factory. Within China there are too many people in the party who don't see a land invasion as feasible.

All of the recent sabrerattling by the US and pushing Taiwan for a declaration of independence is what would trigger an invasion. To think that opportunistically exploiting a senile president's term to act on this conflict grossly misunderstands the entire Taiwan/China situation. And it says more about you and how Americans view global diplomacy.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#557

It was as if they invited him to the Whitehouse to set him up for a lecture and scolding. They had no intention of anything other than humiliating him in front of the world. It's shameful what our administration has done.

The spat started when Vance made a point addressed to the US media (not Zelensky), and Zelensky interjected to confront Vance for his statement.

Up until that point there had been 40 minutes of cordial discussion. I don't think it was intended that the talks would break down and the deal would fall through.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#559
post #82

It looks like the US wants a regime change in Ukraine, it's possible that this became a pre condition from russia for talks to go forward. OTOH, a minerals deal with the US ensures that the US will have a stake in defending the postwar ukraine. Lots of drama and optics involved for sure, but it seems the outcome or the talks was predetermined JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?

> JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?

Why won't he last long?

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#560
This could be a good thing. Uniting Europe possibly

Mr Trump is not wrong IMO that Europe has depended too much on the USA for too long.

Europe is divided, both between and within nations, this might be the impetus needed to reverse that. Unite them in their diversity, and take their place in the world

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