Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…
Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
551–560 of 910 posts
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#552Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cars also have a huge subsidy in the form of roads
A more fitting complaint about cats would be the Pendlerpauschale, which is paid out to people driving to and from work in their car. It's a much larger sum than the €3b spent on the train ticket subsidy.
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#553Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well it's not just a carbon credit, it also provides subsidized public transport to everyone, reduces congestion, improves city air and likely cuts road deaths. Arguably tax dollars extremely well spent.
Except that due to this cheaper ticket congestion on trains is horrible and since the infrastructure is poorly maintained it’s quite common to be late by 1-2 hours while being packed in a sardine tin.
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#554Earlier quoted context omitted.
They do have to do it every time, through the fuel tax. Driving costs fuel. I guess people just don't think of it though.
it's not a subsidy if it's a user-pays system. A subsidy is only a subsidy if users don't necessarily pay the full cost, and the rest is borne by some other group of people who _don't_ use the service.
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#555> It statistically evaluated mobile phone and car movement data for Germany How do you obtain car movement data if not by tracking cell phones?
[0] https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/
[2] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4526796
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#556Earlier quoted context omitted.
As someone who grew up in suburban sprawl, maybe it makes parenting easier, maybe. But they also had to drive me to and from school every day, and band practice, and every single game, and whenever I wanted to hang out with my friends. I would argue my parents basically were moonlighting as my Uber driver for about 16 years until I got my own car. Big yards are great, but empty. Mom, can you drive me to my friend's b…
Funny, I was basically mobile with bike from age 10 or so. Had some friends I needed the parents for until I got a small motorcycle aged 14. So living outside a city is not an issue, although I often wished we’d be nearer to a city. But society has changed a lot since and everyone is scared of the beautiful outside world.
We didn't have sidewalks. That area is still missing sidewalks actually.
In some ways our beautiful outside world is safer than it was 60 years ago, in others perhaps it's more dangerous.
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#557Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? That was a time limited earlier ticket. "The tickets were valid for June, July, or August 2022. The offer aimed at reducing energy use amid the 2021–2022 global energy crisis." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket It influenced the idea to come up with a permanent ticket: the "Deutschlandticket". It started 1. Mai 2023. https://en.wikip…
It sounds amazing. All these prices seem crazy low. A significantly zone limited monthly commuter ticket here in Denmark costs over 500€
But hey, germany could never really decide, are they living in an authoritarian, left or right utopian la-la-land or in a free country. For some time the american influence was huge, but i fear, the influence will diminish and the pendulum swings again.
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#558Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…
You mention that the rail industry is already substantially subsidized. What you did not mention is that the automotive industry is as well. Roads are paid by state and republic. Car purchases are often subsidized via a flat return by the republic (which primarily benefits the rich). Petrol is also subsidized.
Now all these automotive subsidiaries benefit only the people who own cars, and much more the wealthy ones. In Germany, only 43 million private households own a car. That's just roughly 50 %.
But if you get people to choose public transport over your auto, then this benefits everyone. Better air quality, less noise pollution, less streets and more space for pedestrians. Anecdotally, a close neighbourhood removed some parking spots in favour of space for local cafes and public benches with plants. Removing just two parking spots give enough places for 10 people to sit together and enjoy a sunny Sunday -- which otherwise would be dead space occupied by the cars of two or even one household.
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#559Earlier quoted context omitted.
The park to park comparison is the opposite of what's being discussed. That's comparing the value of apple to another from the same tree - there are many subjective elements to compare but given that they're both nearly identical it's quite easy. Still doesn't fit on a spreadsheet e.g. bitterness, likelihood of having a worm inside, prettiness, whatever. What is being suggested is comparing a train subsidy to... Unkn…
>Less parking lots need to be constructed. Less concrete, less carbon. Less roads need re paving every 10 years or whatever - let's compare the carbon of rail maintenance to an asphalt road. Yes, these are all valid other axes to consider. I nevertheless think it's necessary to estimate each of their values as so many "points", which, yes, may be subjective. Those points might as well be dollars, because dollars are…
A teacher is more valuable than an investment banker and yet the investment banker is paid more. Maybe I can make a spreadsheet of all the instances of such things and it would reach tens of thousands of rows. It seems to me plain as day so I don't get it.
Sometimes the dollar value is accurate, often not. The frequency that it's incorrect makes me wonder at the authority we grant dollar valuations.
Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail
#560Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not sure if it’s the case here with Germany, but typically we refer to transit spending like this as “subsidies” but for some reason we forget that building and maintaining roads and highways and such are subsidies too. In the case of the US and probably everywhere else, the highway subsidies are a little insidious too because not only do you pay a boatload of money for highway expansion you have to then go and b…
>not only do you pay a boatload of money for highway expansion you have to then go and buy an expensive car and fuel too. the federal excise tax on fuel pays for (at least in part) the "boatload of money for highway expansion "
Fuel tax income is ~100 Billion
Road expenditures are ~200 Billion
(Combined state and federal)